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pbfordad There are too many people who are just not being treated the way they should be in the medical field. They are getting the worse care which causes either terrible damage or death. It happens in hospitals nursing homes and hospice. It is so horrendous. This is America so I would think that medical care would be good here, So often it is the opposite as I also found out.It is absolutely devastating to say the least. I hope if enough of us get together we can change laws and enforce other laws.
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Yes I agree! There should be a document attached to a DNR that states that the hospice nurses, and employees will not willfully or knowingly ease a patient in to death without the family's written consent.
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I would say under no circumstances would a dnr be used to help a patient die. That is not what it should be used for.
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But it is unfortunately!
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pbfordad This is true, like with my mom, the medical staff used her dnr to their advantage. If I did that, I would never be able to stand myself.I'm not sure how these kind of medical staff can live with themselves after doing such atrocities. People like that need to be locked up and never see the light of day. I am usually a pushover when it comes to punishment, but not in this case.
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yes, I had the same experience. Right now our dear friend went to the hospice on Thursday on Friday he was alert and talking, and eating. On Saturday he was unresponsive. They were giving him morphine he really wants to live and the church is praying for him but they keep on giving him morphine. I think that those facilities accelerate peoples dead. He is still there with no hope to get better since the drugs are so powerful.
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Isn't he on Hospice because he has an incurable disease? My understanding of hospice is that the patient must be thought by an MD to have 6 months or less to live.
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It does not mean rush them to their death. They also put elders on hospice after they have drugged them into a coma and say that they are in last stages of dementia even if they don't have dementia. Of course these overdoses can cause them to have less than 6 months to live. Drug overdoses where the patient is put in to a coma can look like end stages of many diseases. The doctor can make something up after patient is drugged. Also if they are not being treated for a treatable disease or are treated with the wrong meds, this can also make them look like the last stages of whatever the doctor diagnoses. Hospitals and hospices like this really need to be investigated.It seems too many patients are being pushed into death by sedatives or pain meds just for being elder.Good reason to not vote for euthanasia. It is already too easy for medical staff to euthanize why make it easier for them.
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From our daily newspaper:

"Healthy nurse uses suicide clinic to 'avoid old age.'"

Good grief. The article begins [caveat, by the way, the journalist who wrote this is pretty free with her adjectives and has annoyed me in the past by being plain silly. But let that pass] :

'A leading palliative care nurse with no serious health problems has ended her life at a Swiss suicide clinic because she did not want to end up as a "hobbling old lady."

'Gill Pharaoh, 75, who wrote two books on how to care for the elderly, was not suffering from a terminal disease. She said she had seen enough of old age to know that she was "going over the hill" and wanted to take action to end her life while she was able to do so.'

There are eight more paragraphs like this and frankly it's far too depressing and bonkers to type all of it - if anyone wants to look up the article, you should be able to find it on The Daily Telegraph's website I expect.

A spokesman for Care Not Killing said: deeply troubling case, chilling message etc etc.

While a spokesman for The Society for Old Age Rational Suicide (can't they come up with a snappier title than that? Let's Get Dead or something?) went for the lofty tone with having seen much suffering… rational decision… blah blah blah.

So standard party lines, really; no surprises there.

But what neither the grandly-titled Health Editor nor either spokesman comments on is the, to me anyway, far more alarming question of what kind of palliative care this lady was dishing out on a daily basis that made her feel so strongly that death was preferable. And she wrote books? I hope they're going to die with her.
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I am so glad I saw this discussion! I care for my 90 year old mother who has been getting worse since a fall a month ago. She sleeps all the time, barely eats, and was in pain until I begged for pain medicine for her (she is very senstive so I got the lowest Vicodin available. Give her half every 6 hours. She is comfortable). I thought about hospice but now I won't, until or unless she is at a point that I can't take care of her, or she is suffering. She doesn't need strong drugs. She sleeps 23 hours a day, and as long as she is comfortable, I will keep hospice away. Thanks to all who contributed.
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One thing I did want to question: some are saying that it is financial reasons that the hospice ends life. Wouldn't they get more money if the person stays alive??
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Horselady, do you think your mother's fall might have been caused by a stroke? Extreme sleepiness is very common after that and can go on for a long time - several weeks, stretching into months. I mention it because, with my own mother at least, recovery did eventually happen - all is not lost! Hugs to you, and keep up the good work.
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They did a brain CT and other tests and said no stroke, so no, we think she just slipped, like she did 2 years ago and broke her ankle (which ended up with a surgery , 6 weeks in snf, and her family Dr. saying she might not recover or live another year! I said, it's a broken ankle! How can that be life threatening??! Turns out when they changed her meds for A fib, she reacted badly to it. It took me and another Dr. weeks to figure out why she was vomiting and not eating. When elderly are involved, check meds first!
Thanks for your input. I am talking to rest of family in a couple of weeks to get their input.
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Ah. Here's the thing. Both TIAs and small strokes can leave no trace on CT, MRI or anything else - it all depends on where they happen and what damage they do, and the radiographer has to be lucky and/or very quick off the mark to catch them in the act. Whereas A Fib is a notorious stroke source, especially if it's severe enough to warrant ongoing treatment.

So not to be alarmist, but if your mother has that kind of cardiac history, combined with her current symptoms, I would remain extremely suspicious notwithstanding the negative test results.

Not that it necessarily makes any difference in terms of treatment - she's already taking anti-clotting meds, is she? - but it can't do any harm to keep an extra eye open for symptoms. I'm sorry to be a doom merchant. Hope she gradually recovers and things get more stable for her, best of luck to you.
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Horselady, the very nature of the question posted on this thread attracts all those who have had a terrible experience with hospice. There are also many stories posted by those who are grateful for their hospice providers. Like everything in life, there is good and there is bad, but you can't base decisions by what you read on one thread Like everything else in caregiving, we all try to make the best, most informed choices we can.
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Thanks to both of you for your info. Interesting thing about the TIA/stroke theory. I wonder also if that is the case. And cwillie, I know there are good and bad, but as long as I can care for her at home like I have been, we will keep hospice on the back burner.
Bad night last night though, I think she is having bad side effects from the gabapentin. She woke up at midnight with nightmares and delusions, then fell this morning (seems ok physically). so I am going to wean her off it. Ugh!
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Gabapentin? What's she taking that for? You mentioned low dose Vicodin for pain relief - was she already on Gabapentin for chronic pain or something?

Don't tinker with any medications without at least informing her MD, or not unless you're a trained pharmacologist anyway (which I am definitely not, by the way). It may well be that her overall px does need an urgent review, especially if there has been a change in kidney function or heart function, but this is no job for an amateur - get advice.
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For pain..possible cracked scapula from fall 4 weeks ago. They put her on gabapentin at nursing home, then vicodin because she still had bad pain. I always talk to the dr/nurse about her meds. She has had bad side effects of many, many meds for the past several years. No doubt she would have been dead long ago if not for intervention and changing meds.
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You might think about and suggest lidocaine patches for the localized scapula pain. They can be a great addition or substitute for sustemic pain meds.
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Korse lady i am not going to advocate for hospice or otherwise but with hospice you will get visits from an RN on a regular basis who can evaluate mom's conditions and communicate directly with her Dr. Also many other services which may be helpful for you both.
You mentioned the surgery for the broken ankle. general anesthesia can adversely affect the elderly and often leads to decline and death. Again not to say it should be avoided if the patient needs it and I stress NEEDs it
Gabapentin's main use is to control seizures but often given for the relief of neuropathic pain. A side effect is often drowiness
A stroke is often preceded by a seizure which could have been missed or confused within the ankle break.
Finally at the end of life drowsiness and sleeping along with less desire to eat or drink are very common.
With hospice you are perfectly free to bring them in and if you don't like them or their services you can have Mom discharged or find another hospice.

For the person who commented about funding for hospice, it is in the interest of the organization to keep the patient alive. Once they die the money stops.
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Regarding the gabapentin...is had never heard of this med before...but was promptly put on it last fall for neuropathy...800 mg 3 x daily...I made sure I took it as directed...he also put me on ibuprophen 800 mg 3 x day plus my depression meds...at first I thought..hey this is the ticket...and then by day three I felt like I was floating and didn't seem to have control of my limbs anymore...I had to call and talk to his nurse and she talked to him and he told me take it as needed...weird...oddly enough..soon after...a lot of my family members I discovered had suddenly been put on that as well...so I guess I'm asking is that a new med??

I am thankful every day for our Hospice folks...Wasn't too happy with the first one but finally just decided I might be able to change...called the one I had heard a LOT of good things about and they handled everything immediately....so even the changeover was not a problem...
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My mother in law had dementia. My father in law was too cheap to put her in a impaired memory home. He finally got hold of a home hospice doctor and got help coming in a few times a week. He told my wife that he needed to start planning her funeral. What? She was in great health. Her doctor of 22 years said she would probably pout live her husband. They started her on multiple doses of larazapam and morphine. That didn't make sense to me. Morphine? She didn't have cancer she had no pain. We researched on the internet and found these 2 drugs were used together in help induce death faster. It dunbed down her activity so she became a slow walking zombie. Mother's day, she ate nothing because she was so drugged up. Out at the car, my father in law said it was time to give her another dose. What?? She was already so out of it. She fell down the stairs. No one called for an ambulance. The hosice nurse came came over and said she was fine. My wife made a stink so they brought over portable x-Ray machine. The results, she had a concussion. They now put her on more lorazapam and another addicivet pain killer. She was so drugged up she didn't walk up to eat or drink. Mmm. Just what they wanted. 4 days later she was dead. That's how they do it. Drug them so they don't drink fluids and the organs start shutting down and death occurs. According to the rules of hospice care, you can only get hospice of they have 6 moths or less to live. They were coming close to that time period. The hospice doctor told my father in law he could cause death with in weeks. It took months. That's why he talked about planning a funeral the week she started care. Such BS!!! W have a state investigator looking into it. I'm sure the doctor will cover his bases and avoid charges.

Doc
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That is exactly how they do it. My mom's only problem was the staff did not like her age. She was not that old but old enough to cause the staff problems. They used her dnr to help kill her.The staff had to make up some diseases that she had to get her into hospice, by the time she got in to hospice she had been in a haldol ativan and other deadly sedative coma for 2 weeks. Prior to that they tried to take her life with other sedative overdoses. She was difficult to get to die but they finally managed. Others they can get to die faster if they are not strong.When she was in the coma they were saying that it was her normal state. That is how they get by. There are some real disgusting scums of the earth out there that practice medicine.Something needs to be done about elders civil rights such as being allowed to live and not be tortured while they are alive.If I was a lawyer I would be doing something about it.
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flowgo, your grief has overwhelmed you. Your mom was an addict for a long time you said. That's what killed her, try to accept that. She signed for that DNR, she knew she was out of time. Accept her decision.
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hope22, that's one heck of a dose of Neurontin! We usually start 100-200 mg a few times a day, and its rare to need to even work up to a gram or two a day, but they STARTED on 2.4 grams (2400 mg) for you! That's a fairly big bunch of ibuprofen too, unless you are large size and all muscle. Hope your stomach is OK with that. Honestly, you may have just been given too much of two good things by someone who thinks docs like me are wimps for doing the start low go slow thing :-)
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Vstefans...i couldn't tolerate either of them. ..i had a follow up with him in two weeks aft that and i told him i had to back off both of them and could not tolerate the ibuprofen at all. He told me take it on an as needed basis? ? I don't feel that great at times but i haven't taken either of those since. ...makes me think i need a new doctor
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Oh! And I'm not large. .I'm tall and I have always done a lot of physical lifting and climbing but not sure why that crazy dosing. ..
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pamstegma It is true that this kind of grief is extremely overwhelming. It is a kind of grief that you just never think could actually happen. It does not seem real still just shocking when medical staff take a life like the way they took my mom.

An addict??? I never said that.The staff were drug addicts. They were the ones who were forcing her to take drugs putting them in ivs and injections. Forcing her against her will. She told them she could not take sedatives but they forced them on her anyway.Its funny for a woman who was so against drugs dies from too many overdoses.

She signed for a dnr a very long time ago when she was very young.She did not want to linger on if she had something where she needed to be kept alive by a ventilator and she had no hope of recovery. She did not want to be forced to die by use of a dnr. That is definitely not what she wanted.She did not deserve to be killed in this way.
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I have posted many times. Dad died three months ago, and had a TIA On March 17, about a month before he died. That lead to his weakness. The hospice nurse felt his heart stopped. Thats it. We miss him, but he is with mom, and we are blessed to have had him for over 92 years.
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Veronica, thank you for your input! I used gabapentin (2700 mg a day!) after my spinal fusion, and it works great but yeah, drowsiness and weight gain. Also, I currently use lidocaine patches for my back so asked the Dr about those as well. She seems better in the past 2 days, pain wise anyways. During my morning and evening massage of her neck and shoulders, I watch her to see if there is any reaction when I get near that scapula area and there has been none. We have started reducing the gaba. and this morning, she is more clear-headed.

I don't know yet about calling in hospice. I personally don't think she "qualifies", though I have no doubt I could convince the Dr.. We are thinking more of a visiting nurse. My daughter, who is in pre-med and just finished employment at a local nursing home, is starting to come over this week, since I will be laid up with foot surgery. She will be a huge help, especially since she is Mom's favorite!

And lasyly, thank you for clearing up my question about the financial aspect. Yes, if the patient dies so soon, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get paid after that! Even after reading all 420 comments, it is clear that there are good and bad hospice experiences; it is up to us as caretakers to advocate for our loved ones, to learn about their reactions to medications and communicate with the staff to do what we feel our loved ones would want, and to make their passing peaceful as possible, when the time comes. That being said, seeing MY mother's reaction to such mild drugs, I absolutely know that she would never survive anything stronger.
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