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pasalire, It seems to me you might get more accomplished protesting at a clinic than posting here. you might reach a broader audience
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I hope readers get some different perspectives on how Hospices work and that they take the opportunities to discuss their own and their loved ones preferences about what they want at the end of their lives. For those of us who have already gone through the deaths of our loved ones, though, I think it is causing unnecessary stress and bringing up unpleasant times in our lives. My mom and I had plenty of time to discuss what we wanted. Her last two weeks on Hospice went fine. She was able to eat, drink, and communicate until her last day. She appeared to be comfortable. I was with her 24/7 for the last few days of her life, and I am pleased with the way she passed away. Hospice kept me informed and made sure I knew what was being done. She said she was not in pain. She didn't have morphine until the last two days, and she looked peaceful. Those of us who have such memories, or even those who have unpleasant memories, cannot change things now. So, why relive those decisions over and over, especially if some have not come to terms with them yet? Everyone should stay informed, discuss it with their loved ones, and make their own decisions. Why try to impose our opinions on each other and cause dissension? I agree, Kellse, most regulars here have discussed this topic more than enough times, unless it is with someone new with whom they want to talk privately.
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While I absolutely understand your sentiment Chari I have a different view of a forum, especially this one. Not many people go back over the 787 postings to see what others have written so it is important for people to see that hospices ARE really valuable but that there are some that don't fall into that category for whatever reason. I sure as heck don't mean to make you relive them but I do feel justified in responding that others get both sides of the picture xx
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I understand, Phoenix, and certainly respect your opinion. When we know what the topic is, we don't have to read or respond, do we? I forget that some people really need to see both sides of the issue and still have that decision to make. I guess some people can't agree to disagree respectfully. They already have their minds made up and just want to "declare the facts" because of their experience. I think you get my drift. xx
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yeah, I ws just hot, tired, and grumpy when I posted that to pasalire and I shouldn't have been so snarky
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We all have our days, Kellse. :-) Sometimes it's hard not to take our frustrations out on each other, and that is so EASY to do. You aren't the first and won't be the last.
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Absolutely agree with vstefen's advice to Phoenix. I too would choose to stop the IV if it was causing more distress. Comfort care is not about prolonging life at all costs. It is about making the last days of life as tolerable as possible.
If you keep an IV in for any length of time the site needs to be changed every few days causing more distress.

Also agree with CM it is the job of the Dr to explain the option to the relatives so they can make an informed decision.

Now there are occasions when it could be essential to prolong someone's life to achieve a certain goal. Most often it is for family reasons like the birth of a baby or to see a serviceman/woman return from battle. This is usually the patient's choice and deserves medical support.
Dehydration in itself is not painful but feeling thirsty with a dry mouth is very unpleasant. (personal experience here) my teeth felt as though they were wearing sweaters!! Good mouth care is essential and allowing the patient to suck on a swab if they can't drink is good or dripping a few drops of water in the mouth by holding a finger over the top of a straw also helps plus minute ice chips. Of course most people don't have fancy crushed ice makers but just put a few ice cubes in a clean tea towel and hit it against a hard surface and voila you have crushed ice.
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Phoenix I totally support you view of what hospice should be achieving but as usual it boils down to people being in jobs for which they have no experience. It all boils down to training and hands on experience.
Todays RNs are encouraged to take a four year degree but once they are responsible for direct patient care have no practical experience. One RN came to change an IV for me supervised by another isa year RN. It all went fine and I encouraged her but afterwards I asked her if they were taught in nursing school and were able to do this on real patients supervised by a tutor. She said they were taught in schools but had no real life experience. That is a big gripe i have about todays new RNs, their hands on training comes from their peers so bad habits and incorrect information are passed along with no check until something tragic happens. I witnessed this time and time again last Fall in my 3 months hospitalization and either I or my husband had to intervene
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The way the hospice angels described it, with my dad's condition he can seem clear as a bell and then things can decline very quickly and suddenly. It seems that is what happened for your Dad (Memory Eternal). I sometimes wish that (quick) for my dad rather than something prolonged and awful. I don't want him to suffer. He doesn't want electric paddles or having his chest opened up, nothing drastic, just to die at home surrounded by people who love him. I will do everything in my power to give him that.
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Oh, and I can answer the question posed in this discussion group even more directly. NO! Hospice did not hasten my dad's decline. If anything, Hospice Angels have supported him in his every wish. They are there for him when others have not been (the disappearing sibs and friends). They listen to him. They seem to take their mission seriously, of providing dignified and respectful care. They are there for me on moment's notice with any questions I have 24/7. They roll with the punches. They understand and respect the learning curve of the caring family members. They have seen it all, and they know, from their experience, much more than I do. So no to your question. Without hospice care I believe my dad would have lasted maybe a week. With hospice he has been with us for a year today. God bless.
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My father is in the nursing home. He was doing well and had a bout with pneumonia. So there is a hospice representative that does penny auctions with the patients. Watching for the ones she will target next. My father was 101. Since hospice started their Rx they tried to give him moephine until he died. Saying it would not last long. I as a nurse know a 101 yr old will hang on to the morphine and it will shit down systems so they continue to give it. I went to the NH to find them there started their process. I said he has a freaking uti and pneumonia. Not a death wish. He was going to physical therapy everyday till they came. I asked them to get their atropine pills and their moephine and leave. He is now 102. But contracted and I am fighting with my family to get hospice out. They are there doe one thing. Death. In a pt with cancer they are wonderful I don't believe they should be allowed in the nursing home. They are paid 150$ per pt per day and they make sure their time goes swiftly. They promised range of motion we have contractors. I'm doing want I can to get them out of nursing home. It's kinda like euthanasia weird the gov would pay them to go to older pts. Hmm
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Im doing all I can to get them out of the nursing home unless there is cancer. Bringing arts and crafts and auction. They gain trust and then bam. You are stuck with the end of life on their terms. They told us they bring new life. Yes but they fail to tell you it's after desth. They are hard to get rid of and I plan to get take action against them soliciting the nursing homes.
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Nseone, if they make $150 per day per patient, why would they want to shorten the life span? Wouldn't that be incentive to drag things out as long as possible?
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I'll don my tinfoil hat and throw this out for consideration: socialized medicine has turned against the elderly and the role of Hospice has changed from comfort care to clearing the Medicare rolls. I was told - in confidence - that hospitals are paid to keep Medicare patients from being admitted. Is it not possible that Hospice is compensated for every Medicare patient who passes away under their care? Something to think about.
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I had and still have the same feeling as you. My mom's outcome was the same only it was 7 days
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I know hospice kills your love one faster.because my husband had colon cancer .but the day he came home he was feeling better than he felt in months he was a strong person .he told me honey i dont even feel sick i feel really good the best . He had caught alimonia and was in the hospital for a week but why i was down in the cafe one day they talked my husband in to going home with hospice so he sighned the papers he said they told him just until he gets a little stronger the next day he was in such bad shape from all the meds. They were givin him by the end of the week he could not talk but he was still coherit he kept trying to tell me something but i couldnt understand him i ask the hospice nursre why he was like that to please quit giving him so much moraphine and adavan they said they had to so he would not be in any pain then they started giving him dulata pain med everytime the nurse would talk to the dr on the phone she would go outside and talk..he eent into a coma on the 6th day its was sons birthday i told the nurse that he cant die on our sons birthday she wentout side came back in and did something to my husband and said oh he wont then he woke back up the next day and 4 days later he died after the nurse uped his mioraphine. I know they killed my husband there lyers and murderers i hate them.
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Tracy, it is not unusual for a person who is seriously ill to rebound for awhile, then slip into their final weeks. Thank goodness Hospice is there to help make the passing less painful. They do NOT speed up anyone's death.
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FF is right. My father had colon cancer too and Mum called me hysterical because he was so well that if the progress continued he was coming home the following day. I rushed around like a mad thing organising special equipment that we didn't have, and travelled down overnight, got all the people organised to help me shift everything downstairs then went in to have lunch with Dad. He suddenly without any warning deteriorated in front of me. One moment he was fine, then within 5 minutes of that point was fighting for his life. He died later that night so please stop this harrowing insistence that hospice kills people. If they don't increase morphine you will hear what I did, my father screaming in agony begging to die because of the pain. They couldn't kill him but they could reduce the pain and unfortunately with morphine that will inevitably cause death - given the levels they have to use to kill the pain. They can put people into a coma but that is not fair or realistic - sometimes I think I killed dad by allowing the morphine but really what is the alternative? Please get some counselling to get over your grief, your hatred is unfounded honey xxx
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my mom was in hospice 60 hrs and she was gone.they also gave her ativan and morphine,but she was septsis and ready to leave us.she had been sick 6 mnths and missed her better life,the intake hospice worker knew she would be gone in 2 days he was 12 hrs off......hopefully mom is at peace,
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Yes. I do feel hospice hastened my mother's death . She had strong vitals and she was very alert. They kept a ventilator on her for a prolonged 2-3 wks while the nose cannula was working just fine. White blood cell count was lowering, so she was recovering from a colostomy at 89, but the POA other daughter continued to rush her death along with a co-chair of my church council who knew the hospital staff in ICU as my mother was killed in a few days after recovering well in ICU without any arrangements made for hospice as she was deprived of everything including pain meds and tortured in pain to death IMO.
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Right let me define the word hospice for all of you who seem to be unable or unwilling to understand what hospice means.

Care designed to give supportive care to people in the final phase of a terminal illness and focus on comfort and quality of life, rather than cure. The goal is to enable patients to be comfortable and free of pain, so that they live each day as fully as possible.

Now if you don't want your loved one to be comfortable and free of pain then fine go ahead and whinge about hospices. You have no idea of the pain your loved one might be in nor of the rationale behind the doctors prescription.

Finally put a business head on....just for once.... two businesses both hospices both caring for terminally ill. One has a business where people are brought in live about 4-6 months then die free of pain. One has a business where people are brought in and live about a week then die free of pain (or not). Now which one is likely to be making the money? For sure it aint the one where they die after a week. the deep clean, the form filling plus everything else they have to do would be so time consuming that they would go out of business let alone the loss of reputation (or the gaining of a bad one)

In the final stages of life the roller coaster becomes deeper and more irregular than ever. The change from fine to critical can happen in minutes and there is no way you could expect 24/7 care and even if it was there sometimes there is little they can do except relieve pain. THERE IS NO CURE TO TERMINAL ILLNESS - the big clue is in the word TERMINAL.

So can we let this rest please? If you have a gripe you should have reported it to the police and it would have been investigated. If it was investigated and nothing was found - accept it the police are not in cahoots neither are the investigators
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Mom lover you leave yourself wide open to charges of libel writing such inflammatory things on here:

I do feel hospice hastened my mother's death .


The hospice could sue you for libel

She had strong vitals and she was very alert.

But that does not mean she was going to get well

They kept a ventilator on her for a prolonged 2-3 wks while the nose cannula was working just fine.

White blood cell count was lowering, so she was recovering from a colostomy at 89,

One does not follow the other low white cell counts indicate viruses/cancers/bone marrow disorders or a mixture of these


but the POA other daughter continued to rush her death along with a co-chair of my church council who knew the hospital staff in ICU as my mother was killed in a few days after recovering well in ICU without any arrangements made for hospice as she was deprived of everything including pain meds and tortured in pain to death IMO

You are honestly trying to tell us that a church council member and your sister conspired with hospital staff and the hospice to kill your mother?

You know what I actually hope they read your post and do sue you. Your attitude and the continuing negative comments about hospices must be striking fear into the hearts of people whose loved ones are terminally ill when this site is designed to support them.

I am by no means saying all hospices are fantastic they aren't but neither are they torture chambers. My advice would be look around find one that you feel comfortable with and monitor it and DEAL WITH ANY ISSUES immediately in writing. Don't sit and grieve after the event when you didn't work hard enough to deal with it during the event.
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One thing I dislike in this thread is talking about hospice as if it was an entity to itself. We have about 20 of them around here, some with good reputations, others not so good. The not-so-good ones get their reputation by not being available enough, not because they snuff people.

Hospices don't operate in a vacuum. They work with the family members. I agree with what phoenix said about dealing with issues you don't like and changing them, stead of looking for someone to blame after the fact.
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Right JesseeBelle everything was in a vacuum as my mother was not terminal, but recovering fine in ICU, then killed under the guise of hospice. Phoenixdsghter you make s lot of comments without an eyewitness account. Nursing home neglect and malpractice are under investigation . Please stop the rhetoric. My mother deserves justice like any other non suspecting non-terminal patient. IMO the hospital cut off the circulation to her left thumb and killed her on hospice in 2 days to cover up for a malpractice , suit , even she was recovering from 4/4/16 - 4/20/16 with strong vitals, etc., non-terminal. Please stop insulting me on this post. I am here for help and advice, not insults PhoenixDaughter. The POA put a DNR on her hoping she didn't survive the ventilator, then POA rushed her on hospice the next day and she died in pain, not comfort .
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Momlover123, we are trying to figure out what had happened to your Mother and this is all very confusing. You wrote that Hospice didn't give your mother any pain medicine... that is strange, I am wondering if Hospice was even called in at all because Hospice's goal is to make the patient comfortable.

Are you sure your Mother wasn't terminal? In other postings elsewhere on the forums you mentioned that your Mother's colon had burst, well that is a very dangerous situation, especially for someone who is quite elderly. She didn't have surgery to repair the damaged colon, correct?

If I remember correctly, your Mother's Power of Attorney wasn't allowing you to visit your Mother. Were you able to visit her while in ICU?
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When people are recovering fine they are removed from ICU, which is a place of treatment so intensive (the clue's in the name) that patients commonly require treatment for PTSD afterwards. No patient who is 'recovering fine' is in ICU.

I have read your posts with concern for many months now, and I am tired. I am very sorry for your loss.
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Momlover IS making progress. She now says "they hastened my mother's death" instead of they killed her. It's a small step toward acceptance, but a very important move toward finding inner peace.
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Dear Mom lover as yet I haven't insulted you YET but I do have some questions how could your mother be under hospice care if it was not terminal for hospice care is for terminally ill people and their families not for just anyone. ICU is not for people who are anywhere near OK

You continue to have your 'IMO' and you can have that - just as you did with the forged POA (although the courts disagreed) just as you did with the nursing home (although that appears to have not been vindicated) , of course you can but how does that help anyone who loved ones are terminally ill and who have been recommended to use the hospice? I find it insulting in the extreme that the story changes so regularly and yet newcomers will not recognise the small nuance of changes that do occur in your rhetoric. Are you now saying that the HOSPITAL killed your mother or that they made her terminally ill so she had to go on hospice?

I actually can only find one person who is wrong here and because I have not insulted you I wouldn't dream of saying that that person is you. Others may disagree. Out of her because you have never listened in the past and I don't think you will now unless we tell you something you want to hear.
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We just put my father in hospice. He has advanced Parkinson's, has no short term memory, and hallucinates. He requires round the clock assistance. The doctors at the hospital recommended hospice and hospice evaluated him and admitted him. He is in his 90's. He went in still able to eat and talk in full sentences. Maybe he went to hospice too soon, but if we had not intervened for him he would be dead today. The stated hospice intent is to "make the patient comfortable." Routinely, they give patients Ativan and in large doses to "make them comfortable". What it made my father was comatose, unable to eat or even open his eyes. He lost a lot of weight in one to two days. Dad does yell at night for Mom and as a result of the hallucinations. The night nurse seemed much more interested in keeping him quiet; thus they drugged him. We notified hospice with a letter that they were not to drug him that way any more. Dad now is eating and carrying on a conversation again. We suggested other, less strong anti-anxiety meds, but the doctor was indignant that we would even suggest something else. I called all the hospice facilities in the area and they confirmed the same protocol. That is fine if the patient is in extreme pain or already at death's doorstep. But in my father's case, I am sure hospice would have killed him if nothing more than the loss of food intake. We are moving him out to a nursing facility. The nursing facility will try to get him up and moving again if nothing else to reach the bathroom. Mom will go bankrupt, sell her house, and move in with one of us. (She does not want to live alone.) We (you and I) will all pay for Dad's keep with Medicaid and VA. I truly expect him to last another nine months to a year. There are no good options. However, I am convinced that hospice would have hastened Dad's death if we had not pulled him out. This may not be the case for everyone. I know hospice provides a valuable service, but they don't deviate from that service for patients that may need something a little different.
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Lifeline, mom does not have to sell her house for dad to go into a nursing home. Please consult an eldercare attorney who routinely does Medicaid work.
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