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And yet assisted dying just became legal in Canada. I wonder who would use it -- those whose lives were unbearable, probably; yet who's to say when another's life has become unbearable? Certainly not the OP, who might think the patient's life is unbearable NOW -- possibly the OP and patient would differ widely on what constitutes and unbearable life (I'm sure they would, in fact). The patients, while certainly considering their lives unlivable, may not consider their lives to be unbearable -- at least not yet.

And IMO the 'slippery slope' argument doesn't hold water here. In fact that argument doesn't doesn't hold water anywhere.

Such is the conundrum that is created by a society that makes assisted dying legal.
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... constitutes AN unbearable life. Good grief ... are we ever going to get that edit button??!!
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Jingle, the Canadian law as it stands now only allows doctor assisted death for those mentally competent adults "suffering intolerably" and whose death is "reasonably foreseeable." I doubt there will ever be an option to make that choice on another's behalf.
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cwillie: What I'm surprised at is that it doesn't apply to those to "mature minors", and the mentally ill, and in vegetative states due to brain trauma, and does not allow advance consent for patients with degenerative disorders like MS, AD, multiple strokes, in vegetative states ... I think Quebec has the best approach. Or Swizerland.
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My dad had lung cancer and he was the same way another lady commented on here, talking, happy, until hospice came to the house they put the medicine in the refrigerator and he said i dont want them to be giving me the medicine they gave to grandma. I told him i wont allow it and i had to go back to work on Saturday so i left on Friday, hospice came in to help my mom with him on Sunday and she called me and said he doesnt have long they broke the seal and started giving the meds to him and by Monday he was gone. It shuts all their organs down. I want to die on my own the same way God brought me into this world breathing and he will let me take my last breath, not by given morphine to stop me from breathing.
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To answer Rosie about her dad the same with my dad he died within two days , he said i dont want to go the same way mom did and requested that he didnt want to given anything by hospice to me and my mom and within two days he was gone, people need to stop taking Gods place and taking people out of this world. I want to die on my own not by drugs given to me every hour until my organs shut down.
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Patty, your Dad would have passed at the same time frame with or without Hospice. What Hospice does is make sure the patience is not in pain. The morphine that is given is in such a tiny dose that it wouldn't stop anyone from breathing nor shut down any organs.

Yes, it would be nice for one to die the same way as God brought you into the world, but you yourself weren't brought into the world in extreme pain for weeks on end, that is the main difference.
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Gee, im thinking that childbirth, if not prepared for, via Lamaze, Bradley, some method can be pretty darn painfil ( I had three babies with no meds). So, y'all think that our elderlt,ossibly demented parents should be left on their own to manage end stage cancer, copd, chf, and other diseases that rob them of breathing capacing and leave them in agony?

Not my mom; not on my watch.

If you think that is what your G-d demands, fine. Mine does not..
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So right, Babalou. Not looking forward to death AT ALL ;=), but a painful one? Not on my watch either (if one's own death can be said to happen on 'my' watch).

I wouldn't wish a painful death on anyone.
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Pattysue, I am a hospice nurse so I have a good idea of what goes on with dying patients. I'm confused. Your dad didn't want any meds, you didn't want him to have any meds but meds were given. Obviously your mom allowed the nurse to give meds to your dad. Was your dad alert at the time? Or had he slipped into the stage before death and was unable to communicate anymore? He must have shown signs of pain for the nurse to give morphine. We don't just give it because it's there. (Please see my previous post for "signs of pain".) If your father (or his Power of Attorney for healthcare-probably your mom) stipulated that he didn't want meds, why was he on hospice in the first place? The intention of hospice is to relieve pain, anxiety, clear up excess secretions, help with nausea and make the patient as comfortable as possible. As I've said before, we give 5mg. to 15 mg. of morphine for pain (occasionally a different narcotic, if the patient can't take morphine). The minimum lethal dose is 200 mg. Do you see now that the doses we give couldn't kill anyone. Your mother had the right to stop the medicine from being given, just as your father had the right to refuse it. However he probably would have been discharged as a hospice patient if he didn't want to use the service for what it is intended to do-alleviate pain and suffering. Since the Good Lord doesn't tell us the date of our passing, we never know when death is going to come. Patients can be alert and talking one day and gone the next, even without meds. Have you taken this issue up with the hospice you used? I would make an appointment and sit down with them and review his records. Nurses chart every hour or during their visit, so his decline should be noted in the nurse's notes. The admitting hospice nurse thoroughly explains the way hospice functions. If you didn't want to help your dad with pain and/or anxiety, why did you sign up? And, FYI, morphine does NOT shut down all body systems or we would have a bunch of dead post surgical patients in our hospital beds. It can slow down breathing and bowel motility but it does not shut down everything. Please look up morphine on Drugs.com and educate yourself about this narcotic. I'm sorry for your loss.
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All too often what the hospice "plan" is and what actually happens seems to be very far apart.

Take he case of the caregiver here who had her Dad withdrawn from meds hat were helping him breathe. The decision making taken over in an aggressive manner.

I would not allow hospice to make the choices because I wasn't so sure they would make any decisions that allowed that those meds were in fact part of his quality of life. Granted, keeping them in use would also prolong his life....but that was the side benefit.

The theoretical use of hospice and the real life experience are too often too far apart
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Unless or until you are faced with the actual dying process, you have no idea how you would react, but I do know, that Hospice and Hospital Nurses are Angels, sent from God, at least, that was my experience with 3 dying parents! All 3 were relaxed, quiet, and slipped away comfortably and Peacefully, Thank God! To me, and being right there when all 3 left their human bodies, it was a very spiritual thing, and I will never forget how much those Nurses helped our families through the dying process. Never easy, but we do have to let them go with as much dignity and caring as possible. No one should be treated any less. I imagine things were a lot different and so much more difficult in years passed, and that is perhaps some people's loved ones have experienced, but medicine and the practice of Hospice has come a long way in helping ones through the dying process. Its important to be well informed and ask the difficult questions, so that you can be ready when the time comes, and help your Loved one through this as well. In my experience, all 3 were mostly asleep, and their bodies were quite naturally shutting down. It is was happens in the end. It doesn't have to be a scary thing, if you prepare yourself for the end of Life, Celebrate them! Honor them, but let them go in Peaceand Comfort!
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Oh...I have personal experience. My Dad did finally pass away last month. And no, I did not allow hospice to take away his meds. No, I did not allow hospice to come in and take away the decisions.

He way not uncomfortable. I am glad he remained in the care of his doctor and nurses. They gave the best they could within the restrickens Dad himself decided on years ago before dementia took him away. I am comforted to know he had his final days as he wanted them, not as hospice would have decided for him. Maybe the two would have been the same, but after reading the real life experiences here, I could not think it would be better for him to have the decisions taken away from him, his doctor, his family.
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SueC1957, you stated that you are a hospice nurse and have witnessed dying patients. My mother died in a hospice facility and I am haunted by her manner of death. It was not peaceful, her eyes were closed and she was making these loud grunting sounds when I walked into her room, I immediately ran and got the nurse and asked what was wrong with her? The nurse stated that she was actively in the dying process. I held her hand and told her I loved her. She stopped breathing and the nurse listened to her heart and said she was gone, then a minute later she started breathing again, opened her eyes,looked at me for two seconds, closed her eyes and she was gone. It was in no way peaceful. Is this normal? Her only health issue was dementia and blood clots in the stomach and lungs. Hospice did medicate her.
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My brother told me that my sister was discharged to go to a nursing home when she was leaving the hospital. He then told me she was going to a hospice, but he didn't want her to know. He told her she was going to a nursing home. He put on her obituary that she died in a nursing home. I think one has to be very careful when choosing a hospice. Also, more than one person should make that decision. When my sister went to a hospice, all of her medication , food and water were taken from her. They began to give her morphine and dab her mouth with a wet cloth. Within three days she became comatose and died three days later. When I asked the nurse why she wasn't getting food or medicine, she told me she could not discuss this with me, but, I had to ask her husband. My brother in law called her into the room, while I was there, to answer my questions. She told me that my sister was not comatose, but that her body just needed rest. She said she didn't need her medicine, or her oxygen. I think they gave her the morphine because without food, water and her medication, she would have just gone crazy. I don't know how long she had, but it was definitely more than 6 or 7 days. She had copd and went to the hospital periodically. Sorry for all of your losses. I am in the process of getting her hospital records to give myself closure. Hopefully, things are not as I see them.
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I have been away since my husband died in August. But, I guess I have to comment. If you find a great hospice program with good, caring nurses, and yo are satisfied with your loved one not being fed or receiving water and you can live with this, even though the loved one's death is not going to be a lasting relief. (It only seems like it for now. Dead is dead is for a very long time.) Then go for it. Kiss those nurses feet and be glad there is someone to walk all of you through the painful experience. But, if you do NOT feel comfortable with what is going on, say something. Don't stand against the wall biting your lip, hoping someone else in your group will be brave enough to say "Wait! This doesn't seem right!" Because, dead is dead is dead for a very long long time! You are staying here. Your loved one is going somewhere else. You cannot undo this decision! If you are brave and speak up, do not let your family more friends make you feel like "the troublemaker, the one who always has to cause problems or push." It is OK to not be OK with what is going on and to at least ask a question. It is better to apologize afterwords for being a little bit soft hearted or more consciencious than to be angry with yourself or broken hearted for the rest of your life. I only know what I saw on two occasions at the same exact hospital within a year and a half. Both patients weren't wealthy. I learned a very short time after their deaths that there was a new treatment for one and a place I could have probably gotten real help for the other. Of four of us, I now have only one sibling left. I found the Hospice program (in Houston. I know you have seen the place's name.) and the doctors to be arrogant and inaccessible. Worst part of my story is the hospital rep who talked us into signing him into it lied directly to my face about the treatment my brother would be receiving. No warm stories to tell here.
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All I know is my own experience, I knew my brother was terminal and I knew when he moved to a hospice ward he wouldn't be coming home again. In the first weeks he said that the days were long, but eventually when I would visit he wasn't awake. He was well groomed and peaceful (not hooked up to any machines, if I hadn't know he was dying I would say he looked well) and I would hold his hand for a half hour or so and go. I suppose there were lucid moments, I suppose he ate a little along the way because he lasted that way for many weeks. I wasn't there at the end because I wanted to give his wife and family her space (OK, I admit I was a coward too). Ever since I have wondered who gets to choose the select few who get to die in such a wonderful place.
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The more one knows about the dying process the easier it is to accept a person's passing.

Once I learned that when the body starts to shut down, the patient cannot take food because it would be very painful, the same with water.... and some patients aspirate which means the food/water goes into the lungs not the stomach.

People die on the same time table with or without Hospice. With Hospice there is less pain, and I rather be the patient using Hospice.
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staceyb

Under the circumstances, it was nice that your experience was not too bad; that's not the case for others. In some instances hospital will make the choice for Hospice. By the time loved ones find out, it is too late to do anything.. I speak from personal experience. In my case, head of ICU said my mom was dead when she was readmitted back to ICU.
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fregflyer

It's nice Hospice did you right. Some, may feel otherwise.
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carol567

I'm sorry for your loss as well. Was the hospice your sister was at at the hospital or somewhere else? Good luck with the hospital records, you may or may not be surprised at what you see.
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Freqflyer, thanks for posting your last comment on food. Have not posted on this site for a long time but at my wits end. I don't know what to think about anything anymore. I want to believe in something but I don't know how. My husband was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer May 6th 2014. Will never forget the day. Now for the past Month or maybe a little more he has had trouble eating or swallowing (a little) but now he is losing weight and is eating less and less. His doctor claims it is functional and not because the cancer is spreading. He just had his 60th Chemo treatment on Tuesday (Oct.18th,2016) plus a scan to make sure and determine why food is getting stuck before it goes into his stomach. It does go down the throat but gets stuck and than comes back up. It takes him forever to eat a few bites. If he eats fast the food he does eat comes back up. If he eats slowly something loosens up and it goes down. Because of this he has lost a lot of weight (165 to about 135) in a short period of time. My question is: What are the steps when the body starts to reject food? He gets full very fast and is exhausted most of the time. Last year at this time he was eating just fine.
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Cher, so sorry to read about your hubby and what he is going through. Has he been checked for acid reflux? I have that issue, and food does feel like it is stuck in my throat and wants to come back up. I need to pay more attention when I eat and take smaller bites, then drink a bit of water after each bite or so. Does hubby ever say that his esophagus feels like it is on fire? If so, Tums work pretty good.

You probably could supplement his food with Ensore... or try Carnation Instant Breakfast mix which is used in milk. I had to use that to help me gain weight after a surgery.

I also had heard at a cancer support group that chemo can make the mouth sore, thus more uncomfortable to eat.
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This claim about eating seems to me to be not true. My Dad ate a full meal just hours before his passing. Between his heart giving out and his breathing difficulties...we do know know what it was (maybe both). But, he had been that way for a long time. Maybe it was a heart attack....but...he didn't lack for willingness and ability to eat.
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Katie, it is not a hard rule that everyone who is dying refuses food, just as not everyone has cheyne-stokes breathing or pain or terminal agitation or any of the other symptoms that we hear mentioned in the literature. Very few of us ever witness even one death in today's society, but doc's nurses and first responders who have seen it many times can often spot the signs that it is approaching with eerie accuracy.
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126Cher,
This is taken from; Verywell website,
"An esophageal stricture is a gradual narrowing of the esophagus, which can lead to swallowing difficulties. The strictures are caused by scar tissue that builds up in the esophagus.
When the lining of the esophagus is damaged, scarring develops. When scarring occurs, the lining of the esophagus becomes stiff. In time, as this scar tissue continues to build up, the esophagus begins to narrow in that area."

My father had this problem to the point of only being able to swallow liquids. He had multiple 'dilations', a widening of the esophagus by a doctor by putting a tube with progressively larger rings down the throat under anesthesia. It widens the esophagus so food can pass through. Please get your husband to a gastroenterologist who can do the procedure. Most probably he will be able to swallow food again.
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Are there still people reading this post to comment about Hospice rushing a death? I am one week into Hospice with my mom. Something I'm learning, each person working for the Hospice has their own opinions and agenda, so each patient's experience may be different. I'm finding that it actually depends on who is working which shift. Does that sound strange? Took me awhile to realize this. One nurse is all about seeing mom do her best with only offering comfort measures when they're needed, another nurse continually talks about bringing in the 'big guns' to get it over with. I realized, yet again, that no one can do something TO you unless you allow it. If you feel uncomfortable with a medication or a specific nurse, speak up. You are the advocate for someone. Remember their wishes and try to do what you feel they would want. It's not a time to be a victim and let someone take over if you're not comfortable. But if you're struggling with knowing your loved one wouldn't want to live this way, then have a conversation about that too. My mom has multiple nurses and they don't even seem to agree with each other. It's up to me to say which direction to take. Never easy.
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Thanks all!! On Wednesday have an appointment for him with a gastroenterologist. ThanksSueC1957. FrequentFlyer, I was afraid his pancreas was trying to shut down his body.Stressed123....yes everyone thinks differently. As you make 7 phone calls with the same question to 7 different people and each one gives you a different answer....Sigh Stress123 you sound on top of it.
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Best wishes for the appointment! I hope you gets some answers and info that help. I'm no more on top of it than you, as you will see there are just some days when your rollercoaster is at the top of the loop and some days when it's at the bottom. I'm having a real go round with 'an over zealous nurse' that I posted about. Today the coaster was up, tomorrow, who knows. Hang in there!
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SueC1957...How long did it take for your Father to start to swallow again after the procedure? Did he have some type of cancer. ( My husband has pancreatic) or did his esophagus just start to narrow because of his age? My husband is now 67. How old was your Dad? Stressed 123 please keep us informed about the progress of your Mother. Prayers sent to you.
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