Can they let my father die from pneumonia?

I have had recurrent pneumonia since I was 5 weeks old and believe me each time all I want to do is get better quock. Get that man to a doctor yestederday quickly.It is horrible thinking you are going to drown in your own fluids. If your dad wants to go then get him in the car immediately no matter what your mother wants! !

I do not think you have to agree to be POA or sign anything. Only the person making the request for a certain POA.

My dad assigned me as his POA. I did happen to be in the room but I signed nothing. Then my dad put my brother as 2nd if I could not be there to make decisions for him, and a 3rd if neither myself nor my brother could be reached. None of these people were there.

I did later send them copies so they would know dad had requested they honor his wishes. I also sent them a copy of his wishes.

So the person requesting you be POA is the only one who signs and then the Notary signs it and stamps it. But it doesn't do a lot of good unless you send the people who you want to be your POA for healthcare a copy!

If you change your POA request you need to make sure the new people assigned know about the old one. Once the doctor determines you can no longer make decision the doctor can put the POA into effect.
They did this to my dad and I am his POA.

I think he was fully able to make his own decision but they say no. When I said I wanted to have my dad do a new POA and add my sister. They said NO he was not competent to even change his POA. So it is important to pick someone you really trust.... or not do it at all.

I'm in Missouri.

vikki,
You are right to be asking questions since it sounds like you have been "drafted" into this situation.
Here are a couple of questions you need to get answered truthfully before it is too late:
1) Who are these HOSPICE people that your mother has with her and why exactly are they there? (reference http://www.hospicenet.org/ for some explanations of the answers you might get)
2) Sounds like your father may have already agreed to HOSPICE. If so, then his wishes may include a DNR. If so, the ER will refuse to admit him so you need to check this before you rush him off to the hospital.
3) Is your mother confusing POA with Caregiver? You cannot receive POA unless you agree to serve and sign off on all the legal paperwork that must be filed with Government authorities. It is not something your mom can just hand off to you. Assuming you were alone with your father and he has a medical emergency, then you would be obligated to call 911. However, if the HOSPICE nurse and/or your mother as POA for medical were there, they are not obligated to call 911 since it would be your father's wish to die at home rather than be resuscitated in the ER.
4) How does your father want this end of life scenario to play out? If he has already made his wishes known to your mother then you need to hear it from him, if he is able to talk to you or from your mom. Either way, you have no control over the outcome, so you should not feel responsible. Your focus should be on giving your father the love and attention he needs from you without making him feel he is letting you down if he chooses to die by natural causes. That is HOSPICE is all about.

As others have said, talk to your dad if he is able to respond. It truly is his choice.

As I sit here next to my mother, in her hospital room, I think I might understand your mother's thinking, a little. My mom came here vomiting blood and docs only found a small ulcer. She has been getting meds for that. Now she seems on the verge of pneumonia, with a great deal of chest congestion.

She cannot swallow correctly and is at constant risk for aspiration. She has a feeding tube, but only seems to be getting weaker, in spite of better nutrition. Her body seems ready to give out. With the arthritis that is crippling her along with right sided weakness from previous strokes, I wonder sometimes if we should "just let her go."

I would not be able to live with myself, if, for instance, I as her medical POA, stopped further treatment if she does progress into pneumonia. I want to comply with her wishes as stated in her living will, but this is not covered. Yet at times she looks at me and says "I shouldn't still be here"' so I feel torn.

I do not trust the local hospice program since they seem to be into euthanasia. I believe that some people that work for them feel empowered to take a life, when they don't see the quality of life they think the patient should have.

In a least one case, they gave a woman a "pain" shot even though she said she didn't need it. On the way out the door, the hospice worker told the family, "if she is not dead in a couple of hours,give me a call." She died within the next two hours. My pastor tells me he has seen this happen in many cases. This is murder.

I know not all hospice personal do these things and am happy to report a second hospice has opened in the area. They do what they can for the patient without interfering with God's plan.

So, feeling torn by my mother's decreasing quality of life, I can understand how a hospice worker could convince your mom to "let go" and not help your dad with the pneumonia. I cannot understand how your mother could cope with her choice, later, when she is alone and no hospice person is influencing her behavior.

I hope, by now, your dad has had proper treatment and you can rest easy, knowing that dad is being cared for.

In the meantime, I will keep watch, by my mother's bed and pray that God's Will, whatever that may be, is done.

Unless your parents are siamese twins, attached at the hip, or somewhere, then each individual parent should be considered a separate patient with his/her own doctor, medical chart, and treatment plan. They have separate social security numbers, and they have separate medical histories, so where did you get the idea that they should be treated together? Hospice is not the determining factor .

oh vicki , i am so sorry for what u and ur dad is going thru .
freezed up when that mom comes in , just aint good at all . ure a grown woman and maybe u could ask her if u could have ur dad into ur home and that u will take care of him ? if you can ?? he prob would rather be in a nursing home than havin to stay with his wife .
i would not want to stay with a wicked witch in the oz .
dont be afraid of ur mother , u need to start gettin a lit rough with her and let her know what ground u stand on and do some growling . put a lit fear in her if u have to . but then again u said she wouldnt let u go see ur dad sometimes . ah girl you could yell at the door and tell her u will report a abuse ! if she doesnt let u in .
the way ur mom treated u , u could turn around and give her a lit taste of it , treat her the way she treated u and maybe she;ll see the new picture and realize it .
i feel for u and ure a sweetheart takin ur dad out and enjoy outside .

It is about your Dad. If he can't speak well enough to be understood then you can write down possible senarios on paper and have him place a check near his decision. Keep it short & write large. Give him time & space to decide.
This is not about what you or your mom wants. This is about what he wants.

I don't think from what I've read the problem is with the Dad, but with his wife who has also made all her children very afraid of her. She is obviously not the kind of mother which "mother's day' celebrates!

Does home health visit for your Dad? Keep nagging at Dad until he relents and visits a doctor....I've been through this. He does not realize how sick he is and he wont realize it until its hosptial time or its to late. You cant force him...but you can nag him until he thinks he's going to go nuts...which is what I did...he finally became so weak and out of breath that he could not walk to the bathroom and he wet the bed...THEN he let me take him to the hospital.

I thought Hospice was there only when you are determined by the doctor that you ARE dying and will die within the next 6 months.

Hospice is for the dying. Not a free service to take care of people who are sick.

If your father is not dying and wants nursing home care or wishes to do anything to stay alive then he should not even have access to Hospice services that perhaps need to go to someone else.

My dad is sick, he is in pain, he is on lots of medications. I FEEL like he should be able to get well. live forever, fight through it. I want him to go to a pain clinic, get more MRIs, try this, try that......

But he is really tired of it and he says he does not want any treatment if he gets pnemonia. He has lost his eyesight to diabetes, he is in pain from some type of brain problem either strokes or tumors the neurologist cannot make up their mind. He has been thru hell with his Nursing Home foot care and now cannot even walk.

Even though I know my dad could live another 10 years of hell with extreme and constant intervention from healthcare. I as his POA will have to honor his wishes and let him go when he can no longer refuse treatment for himself.

Vicki, I'm so sorry to read about your heartache, I will keep you and your parents in my prayers. My Father-in-law was on hospice. If your Dad is now on hospice that means that the Dr. feels that he will live 6 months or LESS. When you are put on hospice you are suppose to understand and agree that their job is to keep you as comfortable (pain free) as possible but you also understand/agree that you will not get additional meds or hospital for complications of your illness. You are in agreement that you want to be kept comfortable but you want to die at home. Why is your Mother on hospice but she's still able to go out shopping and/or to lunch and whatever else she wants to do? Just curious.

Vikki,

The HEPA laws in Illinois and other states are superseeded by the medical POA that evidently you have for your dad. The more I read from your other thread from last June, the more I think your mother needs a mental and physical health evaluation as well.

Now that I've read both threads, to do or not to do appears to be the crucial question of the hour?

Vikki,

I see from your profile that you began a very similar thread in June of 2009. "How do we help our father with Parkinson's?" I see that your dad at that time was 75 and your mother wanted to kick him out of the house because he fell so much. Sounds like everyone is afraid of your mother and your mother has been verbally abusive of your dad and others.

It looks to me that things have declined from your mother wanting to kick him out of the house to your mother wanting him to die at home. Back last June and this June, it sounds like your dad is not living in a safe situation, but he is still there. I believe that you can use your medical POA to get him out of there and now it is a year later. I'm sorry your elderly mother has instilled so much fear in you and it sounds like there is a whole lot of fear there. Your mother needs to realize that you are not her little girl anymore and that she can't treat you that way. All in all, try to not be in bondage to fear and do the right adult thing by getting your dad some help.

Vikki,

You father is most likely on medication which means he has to go to regular doctor visits to get his prescriptions renewed. You could offer to take him to his next visit and then you could talk with his doctor about things.

Vikki,

Thanks for writing and letting us know the rest of the story plus things we did not already know, but probably are not surprised to hear while it is very upsetting to read it.

Good news to hear that you know what to do and yoiu know what a POA is now. The only way you are giong to really cut thorugh this chaos is to do what you know is right and use your POA to benefit your dad even if your controlling mother gets mad as the devil!!! " That's why you are the one trusted with the POA and such tough decisions and willingness to risk making some people angry goes with the territory.

Yes, there is so much great information from everyone! Okay, you do not die from Parkinson's Disease itself. You die from the complications from it, like, pneumonia or falling, etc.

Last April, Mom called me in the middle of the night. Dad was in so much pain in his abdomen area. I went there and my father was laying on the ground next to his bed. She didn't want to call 911. I did it. I could tell by the way he was pneumonia. Got him to the ER and Dad did have aspirated pneumonia. He was in the hospital for a couple weeks. Then went to rehab. Ever since then Dad has been doing really great. He loves to be outside and walks around with his walker slowly, but, just fine.

My mother is a different sort of person. Sorta like Jeckle and Hyde. What I see is she is very inpatient with him. She either wants him to sit in the living room chair or go watch TV in his bedroom for most of the day. She wants control over everything. So, she doesn't tell us much of anything concerning my Dad. Visiting Nurses and Hopice will not talk to us, even though we're his kids. If we upset her, she will not allow us to see our father. It's happened a lot.

She did tell me that when she called their doctor to have him sign the Hospice papers, the doctor said, "I thought he was much better?" So, I have no idea on what my mother told the doctor so he would sign the order??

I spent 6 hours with my Dad today. We were outside most of that time, except for his lunch. He didn't want to go inside. When the RN came from Hospice and all his vitals were great, including his lungs and breathing. She thought because he was outside moving around, it improved his circulation and breathing. She had nothing but good things to say healthwise about him. When my mother came home, my Dad started "freezing" (Parkinson's symptom) and he wouldn't talk. I think mother makes my Dad very nervous. Iy just isn't a very good situation because she has controlf him and his healthcare.

I still do not know why Hospice is there. I try to be positive and complimentary to my Dad. It really makes him happy. I'm afraid if I put him on the spot and ask him about Hospice, he'll get nervous and freeze on me. Some how, I'm going to find out though. First is, I'm going to gently ask my mother. I've been afraid to ask her, but, I cannot deal with this anymore. I love my Dad. And I just want to make things better for him.

So many of your wise replies have helped me so much. I know what to do and I know what a POA is now, too. There's just so much involved in this.

Thank-you all again! I really do appreciate what you've written to me.
Vikki

sounds like to me the mom wants that husband of hers to die . how old is he ? u need to talk to ur dad and find out what he wants , not what mom wants .
sad she going shopping lala and her husband s at home sick with pn , its all bs to me . u said he was healthy at one time . so mom wants him to die . by gosh girl step in and ask what he wants .

Wow! So much great advice! I suggest we wait until we hear back from vikki628 as to what is currently going on.

If you have to, call 911 and have them check him out. Hospice isn't by any means obligated to care for your Dad if they are there to take care of your Mother. The paramedics will convince him he needs to go to the hospital.

I agree with edvieraja . Always do. Ask him what he wants are take charge and get him to ER. If he needs to be on Hospice his doc. with order it for him I am sure. If he told his wife he was ready to go than hospice will let him stay at home and go. But you need to find out if that was his wishes. If he can tell you.And if he cannot and mom is in charge than she can make that choice too. You will have to decide if he can or cannot or did or did not make the choice to stay home and die. If you can.

If there is no DNR call 911 to have him taken to the hospital-if there is a written DNR then an ambulance will not be able to take him no matter how you or anyone else feels that is the fact-why in the wife out having fun while he is in this condition.

if I were you I would call 911 and has him been taking to E.R. so the doctor can give him antibiotic to cure his pneumonia, I really won't care about what your mom or the hospice people tell me because you will feel guilty if you don't take action now.

if your father only has 6 months to live and your mom is the designed one to make decisions on his behalf and those order where written when he was competent and these orders were given to the Hospice and in those order specify that he is refusing medication when he has less than six months to live, so I think that everything is legally right, but if your mom and Hospice don't have these last wishes orders written out by your father you can do something about it like filling a police report/ reporting elder abuse to the authorities and do it now. when my stepfather has just 6 months to live he told us that he didn't want to be resuscite/no cpr/ no machines for him, so we respected his last wishes. the medication was given to him which had to be smashed down because he couldn't swallow. he only received one radiation for his prostate cancer and he died. is funny that my stepfather never raised us 4 but his 3 biological children and they didn't pay a penny for his funeral.my brother did buy a crave for him to put his to rest. my brother did this because he loved my mom very much. we grow up in another country with my father's parents.

"POA when mom's not there" doesn't make sense - she could mean that you are the emergency contact when she's not there. Power of Attorney (POA) is a legally designated person who will make decisions for an individual should they become incapacitated. There are various forms of power of attorney with DURABLE being most powerful - that person may make any and all financial and care decisions - at least in the state where I reside and in my experience. If your dad's still able to talk and tell you what he wants then ask when Mom's not around. She may feel like she's doing him a favor by letting him pass from pneumonia rather than decline slowly from Parkinsons. Often people worry that a spouses care will consume all their cash and other assets but this is generally not true anymore. Understanding WHY your mom's willing to do this is important. If you fear your dad's suffering pain you can also call 911 and have him taken to the ER for breathing problems. This will force your Mom to reveal what she wants versus what your Dad wants. The medical staff there will help determine your Dad's competency and ability to understand his condition and contribute to decisions concerning his care. At that point the PoA will become vital, the hospital will push for it to cover themselves from liability. In the absence of a PoA or living will, the decisions will fall to the spouse.
Best of luck. I hope you can come out of this situation having a good relationship with your Mom. These types of things can really divide families, I hope it will not hurt yours.

Does a person die from Parkinson's or do they die from complications from it? If the pneumonia can be fixed and he lives longer because this isn't the normal thing to happen, then why are they not giving him antibiotics? Or is all part of dying with the disease? I don't understand how Parkinson's works I guess.

vikki628

Incompetent not incapacitated is the issue. Also, if you are his medical POA, you are it when your mother is there and when she is not, period. She might not like it anymore than my step-dad likes me having medical POA for my mother, but your dad evidently trusted you to take care of him and possibly your mother is trying to bluff her way through this thinking you might not talk back and use your medical POA because you are her daughter.

Anyhow, I think both your mother and the nurse are possibly setting themselves up for a wrongful death case and the nurse should be reported to the hospice manager so the nurse can be either fired or at least moved for her collusion with your mother.

It also sounds like your mother may have put you in a classic triangle between you and your dad vs you and your mother. Like already said above, either get him to the ER or call the hospital.

Has your mother been controlling of your dad all his life? Is she angry at him for some reason to say just let him die like he is?

I agree with Ed. Sometimes you just gotta do the right thing. As a daughter/caregiver for 11 yrs., there have been many times my Dad told me he was "fine" and I knew he wasn't. I would make an appt., put him in the car and take him to his GP, and he was always glad I did. Men especially do not like to complain and most have a high pain tolerance, so while they might feel a little off, they don't see it as a danger. Do it. You won't regret it. If your Mom gets angry, she'll eventually get over it when she realizes that you just want the best for your Dad. Good luck. I know it's tough.

VIKKI:

Put him in the car, take him to the ER immediately and have him checked out just to be sure. Someone who's trying to stay healthy by eating right and exercising isn't planning on dying any time soon. ... And dying from pneumonia isn't what he has in mind; that's what others think he wants because they don't want to be bothered.

So take charge girl! At least you tried to do something, and whatever happens afterwards your conscience will be clear.

-- ED

Unless it differs by state, the POA would only be in effect if 1. dad is incapacitated ie he was deemed to have capacity prior to signing and then if he became incapacitated, it would go into effect.

But if he is competent, POA really means nothing. It is the Health Care Proxy, Living Will (NYS has a MOLST) and is he DNR etc.. these end of life type decision need to be be know from him to you and everyone else most of these are if he can not verbally give consents.
Again it's his choice (unless deemed by a doctor to be not so) and or there is guardianship in place. Again, ask Dad, maybe he wants to spend his last days with his wife.

When my mother isn't there with my Dad, I am the POA. Mom just informed me a few days ago of this. Becuase there was a problem when the visiting nurse was there and she was out having lunch with her friends.
Mom is going out again today for lunch and shopping. So, I will be there with my sister when the RN from HOSPICE comes to visit him. I would like to ask my Dad if he wants treatment for his pneumonia while everyone is there. I've had pneumonia 3 times and I cannot see how dieng from that is a "humane" way to die. He was doing so good mentally and physically, too. I just need someone to explain it to me. Mom doesn't like to tell us much. And Dad speaks so soft and now with whatever virus he has, I'm not sure how great he is mentally.

Thank-you!