Can an outside person get help for a person who has dementia but the son doesn't wan to get her help?

ah, yes...the old "denial stage"..went through that with mom too. She still denies that anything is wrong with her. It's hard when one realizes (and she does) that something is VERY wrong because usually that leads to them losing everything ..life as they have known it for so long....freedoms, etc. Nobody likes change or losing their freedom. They know this, they've seen or heard of it happening to others. Mom STILL thinks she drives and she hasn't for over 15 years. I used to try telling her the truth. ...you have Alzheimer's, here, I'll read about it to you. Then, she would get mad and grab the material out of my hand saying, "I don't have THAT, YOU DO!"...lol It's the fear factor. But as they get older and the Alz takes its toll..they begin to slowly realize that they DO have something wrong. Mom used to say...."Shhhhhh, don't tell anybody I have that"..while we were in the nursing home at an activity and I'd say, "mom, everyone in here has it". She'd feel better then. The other day when I was at the NH using their salon to color mom's hair, a man was sitting and waiting for his wife's hair to be done. He started talking to mom and asked her how old she was. She told him she was 35. I corrected her and said, "mom, you're 75 and I'm 54, remember? You had me when you were 21. She said, "yea, but I don't tell people all that". lol That was a complete sentence she made. Those don't happen often. Usually she is talking about nonsense...things that don't make any sense at all. ...like birds with keys to the car or...somebody didn't shoot us good enough, etc. I just keep driving or keep walking with her..whatever. It is sad. I'm SO glad I got the DPOA before it got really bad.

teachergear1~I thank you so much for that suggestion and I don't want you to feel I am pooh poohing on that suggestion. It's just that my mother also has a paranoid personality disorder. Back in February she started a kitchen fire by heating up vicks vapor rub in a pan. It caught the range hood on fire with limited damage. My sis and I went to her doc and told him what happened. He said he would have the girls in his office call mom saying the doc wanted to go over some things with her (tests that haven't been done in a while). So sis took her in to doc (the appointment was so he could get a current memory test on her). When they started the memory test, mom was failing badly and knew it, so she threw a tantrum, refused to complete the test and walked out. The doc tried to calm her down and do the test in a sneaky way but mom refused to answer his questions and started accusing my sis and me of trying to put her away. The doc did all he could but legally we can't force her to do anything against her will and a doc can't either. It is so very frustrating but without a test to show she is incompetent we are stuck. I went to see her doc again yesterday and he told me that he can certify her incompetent without going to a neurologist but he said she will not allow the test to be administered. He advised me that we will have to call Adult Protective Services in to evaluate her because they CAN force. Sis and I are going to see an elder law attorney before we do that because we don't want the state assigning a guardian when our DPOA covers all that once she is certified incompetent. We want to follow mom's wishes that she set forth before Alzheimer's took over where a state appointed guardian may not do that and just place her in a NH. She has a long term health care policy that will cover home health care but she needs to be evaluated before it can be used. She can still clean her house, make simple meals, feed her dog, and take care of her hygiene so I don't believe she is ready for a NH. If she wasn't paranoid I could do what you did with your mother. She will go to the doc for other things but if they start asking her things like what year is it, draw a clock, etc. she refuses to cooperate with them.After the appt. with the elder law attorney, we will know more about what authority APS has and if they can take from us the ability to keep her at home for another year with home health care under her policy. It may be that we are just not going to continue and have the state take over because of her refusing to cooperate and her doc said as much when I talked with him yesterday. Thank you so much (btw, i posted a thread about guradianship vs. conservatorship and AC posted links to a couple of their articles regarding it).♥♥♥!!!

Before when mom refused to go to doctor, I would just ask her if she wanted to go shopping or to some store. Then, I'd drive directly to the doctor. She'd get out and go in and we'd sit and wait. She'd already forgotten that I told her we were going shopping so it worked out well. Maybe you can try that to get her to the neurologist...OR if she complains about another ailment...ANYthing at all...tell her, "Let's get you to the doctor and get that taken care of"...then take her to the neurologist. I learned to be very sneaky with mom but it always worked.

Unfortunately my mother also has a paranoid personality disorder along with Alzheimer's. She does not trust her family because HER family of origin were completely nuts and she transfers that to us. In california, to get a conservatorship (guardianship) you have to go to court and prove that the person is incompetent. The court will have them evaluated and if the court agrees the conservatorship trumps any DPOA. My mother's attorney has written everything so than when my mother becomes incompetent, we will automatically have a conservatorship without petitioning the court. My father passed from Alzheimer's so my mother knows how it works. A neurologist is needed to diagnose her and she knows that...so she refuses to go. But she can't handle her finances anymore. I'm at a loss as to what to do.

Mom's doctor told me ...after an evaluation that she needed a DPOA unless we wanted SS to find a guardian for her...a stranger. She believed her doctor, thank God.

My mother signed the DPOA 7 years ago when we found out she had Alz. She knew as I had told her all about the disease and I asked her who she wanted to care for her....she already knew the answer b/c my siblings have never cared for her nor do they even see her or call her on ANY occassion. I'm the only one who has ever taken care of her, take her out dancing, to visit relatives, shopping for clothes, shoes, etc. We did this for $25 at an attorney's office. I'm in KS.

Maybe it varies in each state. I have DPOA but cannot use it until my mother is certified incompetent. She can't handle her finances any longer, refuses to see a neurologist my hands are tied because I cant legally force her to do anything against her will. I am going to go to her dr. again to see if we can do anything other than call APS to have her evaluated.

I have been mom's DPOA for over 6 years. I make all the decisions as to which doctor she will see and when. I also take care of her financial responsibilities. I have done this for over SIX years. When I gave it up, nobody else in the family wanted the responsibility and SS told me that first they would ask other members..my siblings and if they refused then they would get a guardian. Social Security hires the guardian and the guardian gets PAID BY SOCIAL SECURITY each month for his/her "duties". I then found out that her guardian was keeping the 60 dollars per month mom is allowed for clothes, shoes, etc. So, I went BACK to Social Security and told them to get rid of the guardian and I will continue being her DPOA. I did this all MYSELF without an attorney. DPOA trumps guardian. Not sure how many times I need to say this.

My DPOA covers both financial and medical decisions for the patient..my mom. As I mentioned before, I have been through this. See above post right before yours sharynmarie.

A guardianship is court ordered and if it covers both financial and medical decisions for the patient, then a guardianship overrides a DPOA. It is the same as if you went to court for a guardianship for a minor child. All decisions are made by the person who has guardianship unless the "court" revokes it.

jeanegibbs. I'm POSITIVE that a guardian does NOT trump a DPOA. I did it myself.. I took the guardian away by going to social security and telling them that I will be mom's DPOA again. They filled out the papers right there and it was done. Since, I've done it...I know it is true... I've been through it. DPOA TRUMPS guardian.

G10121, I'm with jeannegibbs on this one. Just as with children when we see neglect or danger, we have a moral obligation to report issues to the right agency when we see our elders in unsafe conditions or just struggling. Adult protective services can evaluate and recommend to the son to have their parent evaluated. You need to do this NOW! look for the 24 hour hotline number in your area. They will have someone there in a matter of hours. You must remember, there are many many elders who are also abused by their caregivers. Please just make the call.

In response to the person who created this thread...call adult protective services!

teachergear1, I'm pretty sure that a Guaridan trumps any DPOA.

eileen15, did you point out to the NH how difficult it is for you mother to navigate with her walker in her room? What was their repsonse? I wonder if an ambudsman would help in this situation.

I am glad that you are having the gaurdian investigated. I'm sorry that these things take so long.

Yes...contact adult protective services (usually through SRS at least in KS) tell them exactly how you feel and that you are worried about your mom. The guardian is NOT treating you right. I would do everything in my power (even with no attorney) to get DPOA so that you can handle her affairs and see her as often as you wish or let her live with you. I've had my mom live with me several times after a nursing home has neglected her. I take better care of her than any of those people because she's MY mom. Her doctor even told me that he would much rather mom live with me than a nursing home. Problem is after a few months, she starts getting mean and hitting me again. I refused to DRUG her into a stooper so, I researched NH again and found a high rated one. She's been there now about 5 months. But THEY neglect her too. AND, I found out when I asked to see her chart that they had put her on Haldol so that she wouldn't hit them. Well.........gee. I could have done that when she was living with me but didn't want her to be taking yet another drug...already takes 18 a day. And, I didn't want her "zoned" out. That's what they do at the NH, they get the doctor to ok a drug that will make the patient easier to handle. My mom had a guardian before when I relinquished my responsiblities years ago because I just couldn't handle mom. ALL I DID...was go to the Social Security Office and tell them that I did not want to be her DPOA anymore. So, they found a "guardian"..of course I still went to see mom almost every day and found out that the guardian was keeping her 60 dollars a month that she is SUPPOSED to get to buy clothes, shoes, etc. That made me mad so I went BACK to the Social Security office and told them that I will be her DPOA again and get rid of the guardian ..that he was stealing what little money she gets each month. I tried to get that money back but it was no use. They are all theives I tell ya!! The DPOA I have just cost me 25 dollars for an attorney to draw up. It's only one page and it is good until mom passes away. You might check with social security and tell them what you would like to do and how the guardian is treating you. THAT is NOT RIGHT at all.

I did not get an answer to my reply , refer; why my mother has a guardian because she was taken to court by my sister to be incompetent. Should I contact adulto protective services about my mother's room being a safety issure. I can not get DPoA because my mother has a guardian who does nothing but collect money.
Kathy Dunn

The reason my mother has a court appt. guardian, my sister (who has a mental problem) petitioned the court to find my mother incompetent, my brother and I have asked the guardian to resign but she refuses, we did contact the inspector generals office 2 months ago, they are having the guardian investigated. Everything takes so long if you don't have an attorney which I don't have the funds for. My mother wants to live with me and I am capable and willing. This guardian won't even let my mother leave for the day to spend the night. Because I have pointed out a few things she has now limited me to 1 visit a week and 2 calls, she also told me if I cause anymore problems she will limit me more. The problems I caused were pointing out when my mother went back to the ALF all her things were missing, everything not just clothes, luggage, facial products I do mean everything. No one seems to care, when I told the guardian another time that my mother looked like she could have an eye infection, the guardian told me to think positive and stop finding fault. There is so much more, the guardian is just wanting to limit me from seeing my mother.

Why does your mom have a "guardian" when you are her daughter? I would try to get Power of Attorney so that YOU can make sure she lives where you want her to and is getting the proper care. I am DPOA for my mother and I make all the decisions for her. I go to the nursing home at unexpected times and check on her. She has Alzheimer's and it is BAD. But, when I find them neglecting her as I've found before, I move her back in with me. Of course after a while of living with me she starts getting mean and hitting me again like she did when I was a kid. But as DPOA, I control which doctor she sees, which nursing home she lives in, I make sure she has clean clothes, buy her new ones if needed and shoes, etc. The nursing home is supposed to call me when ANYTHING comes up with her and this new one doesn't. I told them that they MUST call me from now on if anything at all happens to her or changes with her. Check into becoming her Durable Power of Attorney.

My mother has a professional guardian, I visited my mother yesterday... she has a roomate... the problem is the facility put the roomates mattress on the floor next to her bed, then next to the mattress floor pad, now there is no room for my mother to get by with her walker... My mother tried to walk on the floor pad with her walker I stopped her, Then she turned around to walk she only had about 1 foot, She almost fell, if I had not of been there she would of I caught her. My mother has had 2 bad falls already at this facility. 1st one she hit her head, 2nd one she broke her hip. She has dementia. Problem her guardian when I bring things to her attention, she just tells me to think positive and stop finding fault. I don't know what to do ? I fear for my mother's safety.
Kathy Dunn

Dealing with a person who has dementia is a tough job. The son may not realize the extent of the care she needs or is unable to provide for. Calling in Adult Protective Services before speaking with the son seems a little rash- but as a concerned friend or neighbor I'm assuming that you have spoken with the son and spent some time with his mom. How do you know that she has dementia? She may have a medical condition that can mimic memory loss. If she is home alone all day and you have some time- is it possible for you to befriend them and drop by with a meal? Burn marks are another story- depending on where they are can be a sign of abuse or neglect in which case a call to APS is in order.

Contact Adult Protection Services with your concern. They can investigate.