How do you get parents to talk w/you about their finances? I'm afraid they won't have enough $ in case of long term care.

Igloo and Eddie are both right. The property probably cannot be sold. I expect they will not listen and pursue the sale anyway. You could ask to be appointed guardian, which is expensive, or you could notify the county Senior Services that your parents need a little supervision.

I agree it's their $ to do as they please and saving their soul is important for a lot of people, but drop by the church and explain your concerns to the pastor or whomever is in charge. There's a lot of vultures out there who use the Bible to mask their greed, God doesn't need the money, and heaven can wait. S/he can speak with your parents to make sure their decisions are informed ones. Good luck my friend.

awwgh... should read: "Giving or gifting of assets (like a home or a car) or the money derived from the sale of the assets (the proceeds from the sale of the house) will be found out by Medicaid as there will be a title transfer done when the house is sold. The title transfer is noted by the local assessor and then in turn goes to the state's property database. It will show the date & amount of the sale. So when Medicaid evaluates their application, the sale will come up and a transfer penalty to the penny will be based on that. A penalty like this is hard to challenge as it is legally recorded.

They are getting inaccurate advice and I bet it's coming from the church.You are right to be worried about all this. I bet they do not understand what Medicare does and more importantly doesn't do and ditto for Medicaid. This site has articles on the difference between them and you really need to understand what's what.

You need to tell them that if they need later on to apply for Medicaid, Medicaid will do a transfer penalty for the gifting of the proceeds from the home sale to their church. It doesn't matter that it is a church or other charity. Giving or gifting of assets (like a home or a car) or the money derived from the sale of the assets (the proceeds from the sale of the house) will be found out by Medicaid as there will be a title transfer done to move the ownership legally to the church. The title transfer is noted by the local assessor and then in turn goes to the state's database when Medicaid evaluates their application.

How a transfer penalty works is like this:
say mom has a home with assessor value of $ 85,000.00. Mom gifts it to 3rd Cousin Lisa for free via a quit claim deed. They do a quit claim as Lisa can just do this herself from a form she gets off the internet and no attorney or Realtor needed. Lisa files the paperwork at the courthouse. Property is now in Lisa's name. OR mom sells the house for 85 K and gives the 85 K to Lisa as Lisa says she will take care of mom. Mom lives with her kids or Lisa a few months and then they all realize that mom's level of caregiving is beyond what they can do. Mom goes into a NH and applies for Medicaid and the NH takes her in "Medicaid Pending". When mom's application is reviewed, because all property ownership is recorded by the state, it will come up that mom transferred an asset valued at 85K. That becomes a transfer penalty in which someone from the family will be responsible to pay BEFORE Medicaid will pay. Lisa isn't required to pay the penalty either, she has no legal requirement to do so. The penalty is based on your states reinbursement rate for Medicaid. So in Texas it's $ 145.00 a day & an 85K penalty would mean 586 days (145 dividing in 85,000) in which the state expects someone to private pay for mom's stay BEFORE Medicaid will. That someone will be mom's next of kin and not Lisa.

The contract at the NH will also state in some way that if Medicaid doesn't approve, then they (the NH) can go after any and all responsible family for payment. Now Lisa, since she is not a direct family member, is pretty much free & clear on being responsible. It will be the kids all who get saddled with dealing with this nightmare. Insert "church" for "3rd cousin Lisa" & this could be your story.

If you can't come to terms with the NH, then mom get's moved back home till the penalty period has passed or becomes a ward of the state for emergency NH placement wherever the state can make it work out.

You can go to your states Medicaid for Long Term Care site to find out about all this. You can also just google Medicaid & transfer penalty & your state's name.

You know if your parents are already getting Medicaid, depending on how your state runs it's Medicaid program, there could already be a claim or lein on the property. SInce about 2006/2007 all the states have to have a MERP program. MERP is Medicaid estate recovery program. If you get Medicaid for NH or for other long term services, the state is required to do a claim or lien on whatever assets the Medicaid recipient has. The actual legal action is done via probate court after they die but the claim or lein is attached at the time they accept Medicaid. This is to repay in some way the $ the state spent on them. While they were alive the property was an exempt asset for Medicaid but once they die, it is no longer is exempt asset.

So you need to find out what Medicaid they get and if its the type that allows for a claim or lein. If so, what can happen if they have already gotten Medicaid services is that the MERP claim or lein is there on the property. But the claim or lein doesn't get seen immediately as it's done in probate and they aren't dead. But when the property goes to the act of sale and there is a title search done, the title company will find the MERP claim or lein. There cannot be a warranty deed done on the property till the claim is lifted. If whomever is buying the house is needing to get a mortgage or other bank loan to buy the house, they will need to buy the house by a warranty deed which means a full title search. It will queer the deal. The title companies are getting really onto the problem with MERP and are now pretty extra careful with elderly homeowners house sales. This is because title company is on the hook to pay off the lein if there is a problem later on after the act of sale.

If your parents are getting Medicaid and there could be a claim or lein, you need to find that out. You can contact Medicaid to see if the benefits they are getting from Medicaid, can have a MERP claim or lein applied.

You know if you want to stall the house sale, you can contact the Realtor and tell them that your parents get Medicaid and that you are NOT sure but there very well could be a Medicaid claim or lein on the property and you just want to let the Realtor know that this just might be out there & come up as an outstanding claim in the title search. A good Realtor's antennae will be on high alert on this and probably will have the property removed from the market till a clean title can be assured. If you feel the sale of the property is being maneuvered by the church, this can slow it down. Assuming the Realtor is not the wife of the pastor......or member of church.

How to proceed.....well you know your parents best. If they are the stubborn type and refuse to believe whatever you say even if you have supporting documents to show them, then as hard as it is, you have to let them fail. Maybe this church is all roses and champagne and will take care of them and pay for everything they need from now till forever. I doubt it. But whatever you do, never, NEVER ever sign off on anything for them in your name. If you are their POA, then whatever you sign it has to be "Jane Smith Jones in her capacity as DPOA for John Smith (of John and Mary Smith)" on each and every document even if it doesn't fit on the line. You want to wait to get copies of any and all paperwork too. You are not responsible for their debt but the NH and creditors will send someone the demand letters and the usual is to send them to the next of kin (you). You have to let them know that you are not responsible and they have to provide you documenation that you are. If you sign as above, they can't make you pay for anything. If you are not their POA and your parents won't ever let you or your siblings be POA, then do NOT ever sign for them. They have to sign-off on everything themselves & just walk away if they can't. NH are about 8K a mo per person & that is alot of debt that you cannot afford. It sounds harsh but reality often is.

Oh about being the executor, you don't have to take it. Really truly. You can send a letter to the court or the attorney holding their will, that you are unable to fulfill the responsibilities of executor (you don't have to say why either) and then what will likely happen is that the state will appoint an executor. Kinda like what a state does when someone dies intestate. Good luck and be firm.

desertflower .. I think you have every right to be concerned. If your parents want to leave the church their money they can do it after they have died. If they sell the house they will probably need that money for care as their health declines. Perhaps you should talk to them about POA. Otherwise their care will end up coming out of your pocket!

Update: I forgot to mention, parents are in their early 90's and in good health, currently living independently in a house they share with one of their children. The house they have for sale is located in the same city but they can't afford the taxes and upkeep to live there.

Well, your parent's money is for them to spend as they will - if they still have their mental faculties and are not proven incompetent. If I were you, I'd hold a family meeting. You and your sibling can take them out to coffee or lunch and bring up finances and their long term care. The idea is that if you drive them there, they can't scoot out when it gets uncomfortable, like they could do at your house - or even ask you to leave.

Children are not responsible for parent's debt, like they are not responsible for your debt, unless co-signing on debt occurs. Naturally, they will have to liquidate their assets for an ALF or NH.

You may want to highly consider meeting with your parents and an accountant and elder attorney to discuss these personal financial matters.