I have DPOA over mom with dementia. She wants to revoke DPOA and give it to my nephew. Can she?

If you are the DPOA and a Dr. has declared her as having Alzheimer's then you should be ok.I have been thru this with my sister, before I became DPOA my sister sold moms house and everything in it and moved her to Georgia. Within a year and a half mom was begging me to come and get her which I did and as soon as I brought her home we went and made sure I got DPOA. Our attorney said that there was no way she could have it change. So get her diagnosed ASAP.

A memory care AL facility can solve a bunch of problems if you can't afford round the clock help at home. Sometimes it's the only option. If your loved one wants to be in an AL facilty, they'll see things in a positive light. But if your loved one complains they are in prison, remember: in many ways, a memory care facility IS like a prison. And the farther down the dementia road they go, the more like a prison it will seem. Most of these things are necessary to keep your loved one and others safe, but if you have dementia, you don't know that.

You can't leave when you want to, the outside doors are usually locked but your bedroom door will not lock, they tell you when and what to eat. Some places won't let you keep food in your room and the kitchen is locked, so you have to ask permission for a snack. You can't have any money of your own. If you want to buy something, you have to ask someone to give you your own money or to buy it for you. Your stuff disappears--it must seem that your family jewels (now in a safe deposit box somewhere) have been stolen; your favorite sweater turns up on another resident, who must have stolen it (laundry accidents are frequent or maybe it was stolen).

They tell you when you have to take your meds and often make you "open wide" to prove that you swallowed them. People beside the doctor you remember will prescribe meds for you that have side effects you don't like but it's hard to get them changed. If you decide you don't want to take these unwanted meds, you are labeled "noncompliant" and they try all sorts of tricks to get you to take your meds, including waking you up in the middle of the night to give them to you when you're half asleep.

If you need help with personal hygiene, strangers will watch you pee and will often take off your clothes and touch your private parts without permission. This is bad enough when you know you've soiled yourself. Imagine if you're unaware of it. People sneak up on you in bed at night and put a hand in your underwear. (They're making sure you're dry, but you don't know that.)

You'll be living with a bunch of crazy people who howl and scream for no apparent reason. With bad luck, you can share a room and bathroom with one of the crazies. If you get lucky, you might like your "cell" mate. If you have money, you might get a room all your own.

I observed these conditions when my husband was in assisted living after his stroke, before he was able to come home. At least he remembered who I was and knew that I was looking out for his best interests. With some dementias, such as Alzheimer's, the person in care doesn't even have that comfort. I also know that at some point, my husband's care will be too much for me and he'll have to go into AL again. If we could afford a continuing care community, I'd at least be nearby and part of his regular daily routine. But that's not looking so possible, so I'm trying o get used to it.

Maybe it matters whether your loved one is a glass-half-empty or glass-half-full person. If so, I might be doomed if my brain ever gives out. When you have your faculties, at least someone can explain the reasons to you and you can look for the half-full. With dementia, that doesn't work.

I hope that wasn't too depressing. ((Hugs to everyone dealing with this.))

It takes two diagnosis of incompetence for it to stand,
maybe one on the outside, that said she needed 24 hr. care
and the one inside her facility.

In Illinois, they have to be somewhat together,
They administer a cognitive test and an interview.

Yes, Rovana asks the pertinent questions, and yes purple makes the good point that if we want to have our choices respected, we need to make the necessary preparations.

Individuals' rights do conflict. Preparations don't cover the unexpected. So sometimes, often perhaps, the ideal is not achievable. You can only try to get as close to it as you can.

Rovana, I was trying to figure out how to write exactly what you wrote. This is the exact reason people, BEFORE they are incapacitated (either mentally or physically), need to make their wishes known TO MORE THAN ONE FAMILY MEMBER and plan ahead financially or by insurance purchase, so loved ones aren't being thrown under the bus by having to make choices that may, or may not, be made in the best interest of that person. It just isn't fair to saddle one person with all of the responsibility, yet none of the support.

I'm trying to figure out how this works in practice - I'll theorize rather baldly and see what people on this thread think. Obviously, a disabled person has rights and they might well want not to go to a nursing home, or similar. If they can care for themselves, or pay themselves for the kind of care that they prefer, so that the law won't come down on anyone else, then of course that is their business. BUT, what happens when that disabled person can't do this? Do they have a right to demand that anyone else, including family, come forward to make their preferences possible? Suppose the family says we will contribute to care in a facility, but we will not take you into our home. Gov't says the disabled person can't continue to live without caregiving because they are a danger to themselves or others, Now how on earth do you balance all these "rights". No problem as long as you have money or are physically capable of caring to yourself. But what happens if you don't? Can others be compelled to involve themselves? Frankly, there are people out there no one would take into their homes or lives voluntarily. So what happens in these cases? Any ideas?

Let me make this crystal clear, my intent is not bellicose. What I am saying is a prison is not a nursing home. There are people who are struggling with the decision to put their loved one in a nursing home with great angst, this prison analogy could add to the guilt, which is not needed. I guess you'd call me literal minded, I'd say, I know what it is like to face the decision.

Many elders won't have any experience of prison, either, of course. The point made was that, to elders who don't know what an actual, real prison is like, a care home they don't want to move to can look like one.

And in that they are being sent there without their consent and will not be free to leave when they wish, the analogy is valid. That's all. Perhaps if our older people really had been to jail they wouldn't be so afraid of care homes? - but I'm not sure that thought is much comfort.

Madeaa, I would not dream of questioning a carer's decision about what is best for his or her loved one, and I'm sure Iwentanon wouldn't either. Surely if there's one thing this forum proves it's that you can only do your best with the reality you have to deal with. Everyone is free to disagree , but nobody has any business to criticise another's choice. xxx

I..., you are incorrect in your assumption that I took what you said personally. My decision was made with a team and in my mother's best interest. You really have to have the experience of being locked inside a prison to really know the difference. Just like people can empathize what it must be like to take care of someone 24/7, but unless they have done it themselves it is a theory.

Get an attorney ASAP, she can still sign whatever she wants until she is declared incompetent. The facility will not get involved in a family feud, but they will respect court documents.

Don't take it so personal, I did not question your decision,
there is nothing wrong with wanting to be in your own home,
our 86 year old was in one of the new modern monstrosities,
they show modern apartments , suites, etc.
But our 86 year old had a small room,
maybe 10X12, that fit a twin bed,
a love seat, a table for her phone and
a tv stand and television.
She could make coffee but not much more
and she still has her wits about her,
but back then, she weighed 98 lbs,
and we would have lost her, for 6500 dollars a month.
Every body solves their own issues, in their own way,
I never said you did not solve yours.
And I never said that your mother's residential home was a jail.

I said being in one feels like jail.

And no I was never in jail,
but then I don't have to be in one to empathize.

Iwentanon, don't bother sending me any hugs. I asked you if you ever were in jail. Simple question, I have worked in state prison for quite some time and I do not see the comparison to my mother's nursing home and a prison. What you describe sounds like a mental institution like Willow Brook from years back that was closed down. Are there crappy residential homes, yes, like anything else it is relative. But, I can assure you there is no comparison.

I was almost put in a nursing home
when I was 44 after I had a stroke,
haven't had one in 12 years, thank God
but I can remember the family talk,
like I was deaf? and could not hear them.

Sometimes what is someones convenience,
is another person's reason not to live,
exactly how I saw going into a nursing home,
my family wanted to put me in.
It was mostly my sister,
who had my daughter through the ordeal.

No more solitude with your morning Joe (even if you need assistance)
replaced by a bunch of noise of people getting to a dining room and
a large group of people being served, the clamoring of trays, why do people
always say their loved ones are better off living in a nursing home?
I worked in one, in the mid 70's, the new Alzheimers and Assisted Living Facilities look good, but did you know...
if your relative gets the flu in Assisted Living it is not the CNA's job to help them sip down their tea or ear their toast, like you would do if they were with you.
That is just propaganda to lull you into thinking every thing is being done, for your loved one, next time you are at your facility, ask the RN or LPN ratio per facility or floor, you will find out it is only one and that CNA's are calling the shots in most facilities daily. That their is a certain schedule during the day when it is busy and another one at night... I was walking around a facility for 45 minutes at 700-745 at night, looking for the open house (that had been cancelled) while walking around I saw nobody, nobody in the dining room, nobody...when I went back down to the desk and was writing a note for the facility, I saw a pizza delivery man walk in the same as I did.
He rang a bell behind a potted plant, and out came a person to collect and pay for the pizza, one person. One person, that is how I found out the open house had been cancelled...who knows where anyone else was.
You facility should ask you to sign in

Have you ever been in jail?

PEOPLE WITH OR WITHOUT DEMENTIA (whether in the own mind or now incompetent mind) HAVE THE RIGHT AS A DISABLED PERSON to live in the least restrictive environment as I have mentioned here, time and time again.
Just because a person has POA and can make decisions doesn't mean they can put somebody away like used luggage.
Anybody remember the UGLY LAWS(harboring the psychotic aunt in the attic?), they were done away with, in the 1970s, to make way for people who are disabled to have rights, to live and move around the way they wish.

Of course if your nephew is not a good care taker, or an opportunist, would be the only reasons he shouldn't be the caregiver.

Q: Have you ever tried to imagine what a nursing home
looks like to a person put into one against their will?

A: A jail.

I'd love to see the expression on the Ombudsman's face when he hears that he's "going to help her revoke POA this week." Oh he is, is he? I wonder if he knows that?

Reminds me of when my mother told her family doctor that he was going to give her travel insurers a reference to confirm that she was in good health and fit to fly to Ecuador. Bless him, he nearly fainted. He did give her a reference; and she did get to Ecuador and back in one piece; but he didn't quite phrase it like that...

You're right not to worry, your mother's case should be in safe hands with the ombudsman - and by giving him the facts you've done all you can. Wishing you a good outcome x

Thank you one and all. Nephew and I are in agreement about her staying put. However, she now has her 77 year old sister helping her. They went to the bank and opened a new account and transferred the money out of our joint account. She also told my brother the Ombudsman is going to help her revoke POA this week. I realize the Ombudsman is a patient advocate and I respect that. I just don't understand why she doesn't look into my mother's medical history and my Durable Power of Attorney to understand as soon as the medical documentation is presented declaring her incompetence it cannot be revoked. Believe me when I say there is no upside of this for me having DPOA. The only reason I have it is because she and the same sister were spending her little bit of money and not paying the bills. She then began to fall. overmedicate and not tend to her bathing and grooming. She ended up going to the hospital and rehab twice. The last time she was home one day and ended up in the emergency room and almost died. It was this visit where she was diagnosed with Dementia and I was told she would not be able to live on her own again. It was then a choice between the very nice, safe and caring assisted living facility or a nursing home. I chose A.L. She has thrived there, even though she has been consistent in saying she wants to leave with no clear answer of where she wants to go. However, now she wants control of her money (S.S. and a small retirement from her husband) and to go live in the same apartments (roach and rodent infested) as her sister. If I present documentation and she is deemed competent to do these things then so be it. I will be done with it once and for all other than keeping A.P.S. involved to make sure she is safe. Thanks again. It is nice to know there are people out there going through the same thing. This experience has taught me a lesson and I will make sure my children will never have the same experience.

I was not saying that a person refusing a certain type of care is necessarily suffering from dementia. I am just saying that people with dementia are known to make rash decisions that can put their lives in danger. A person of sound mind knows their capabilities and can look at alternatives. My mother kept saying how she had to leave my house and go "someplace" but was never specific about what that meant. I had shown her many living facilities previously but she didn't like any of them. I realize it meant she wanted to leave her pain and confusion behind and the someplace was a dream place from the past. I think she finally accepts that she can no longer care for herself but it was hard.

If your cousin takes your mother across state lines, that's called kidnapping. Please have your mother's physicians declare her incompetent to prevent your family from going through the same thing that our family endured. Your mother's health and safety depends on it. Good luck and God-speed.

I agree with countrymouse. Make sure there isn't a real reason she's trying to get her grandson to spring her. And like everyone says, talk to the nephew and find out IF and why he thinks this is a good idea.

On a practical level, is the facility locked or can she come and go as she pleases and have any visitors she wants? Unless you keep her from going out and you ban visitors, she can sign a new POA document if someone brings it and some witnesses to see her sign it. (Do I sound paranoid yet :-)

Banning visitors is rather extreme. I should think the ALC would work with you to make sure she doesn't get someone to take her away without your approval. If she's there because of dementia, they'd be nuts to accept a new POA signed while she was in their care. I'd suggest sending a registered letter to the facility and your nephew stating that she's not capable of making that decision for herself. If you're particularly worried, have a lawyer send the letter. That might especially bring him to your nephew that he can't just spirit her away without serious consequences.

Good luck.

How can a person say that just because you refuse a certain kind of treatment it would have to indicate a level of irrational thinking, she may have other ideas for her care.

I think the bottom line here, is, that until she's declared financially and/or mentally incapable of making decisions for herself, she can =legally= change her POA at any time. She doesn't need your permission. Your region may have different laws and regulations that govern HOW the incompetency is determined and/or made legal. In our case, a letter from the physician was sufficient for *most* purposes.

As has been said, unless you do your diligence, you may encounter a tricky and unsavory outcome. Good luck!!

After reading my answer I felt I had left out the most important part...is Mom competent? I just read KevinB's answer and in my opinion he hit the nail on the head, you MUST go with her competency and seek legal counsel if necessary.

There is an overlap because someone who is not physically capable of caring for themselves but is mentally competent would not make rash decisions to forego care they are getting without a viable alternative. Someone with dementia is more likely to make irrational decisions regarding their care as they are not completely aware of their situation or are letting their emotions rule. The latter can be exploited by people who prey on their emotions, knowing the logical side is diminished.

I think being advised to live in a residential facility does not necessarily have anything to do with being competent. Competence is a mental issue, is this her issue or is her physical state such that she fares better off in a residential setting? The fact is plain, unless she is incompetent mentally, she can dissolve any DPOA, POA without a lawyer by stating in writing and signing it with a witness.

I feel for your loss and frustration with your mother.
I think this is needless worry, because the medical professional have already decided she has to live in a facility, correct? That's the same thing as not being competent, I would think. Check with her doctors. Some people with symptoms of dementia are affected this way; that is, that they want to run away or run to the past when they could function. If you want to after consulting with your doc, have a conference with the nephew and explain this all to him. Be patient, it's a difficult period and after a time she will understand that you did what the docs advised.

If mom has no mention of being dementia, memory loss or alzheimers, she would be competent and can do as she pleases. Just because you are the agent she has chosen, doesn't mean you can run her life. You must have her deemed incompetent if you want to be able to protect her...unless she has. I am not an attorney, but an Estate Planner....lot's of good info here, but go back to her competency and go from there. Double check with legal counsel.

Everyone has given you some great advice. It sounds like you and your nephew are not on good terms and he is taking what your mother says as gospel truth. Have you ever invited him to sit down with you and Mom's doctor and had the doctor go over her entire condition and explain to him that many times a person can seem competent but their moments of being lucid are fleeting? That person who is lucid slips back into incompetency in the blink of an eye. He needs to have it put in front of him by a professional so he does not think you a lying to him.

He does have the best intentions for his grandmother but how would he feel if he stole grandma, falsified documents, put her into her own home and after he left grandma over medicated herself and died, grandma fell broke a hip, was hospitalized and died, grandma forgot a pot on the stove, caught the house on fire and grandma died, grandma left the house and wandered the neighborhood was hit by a car and died? He may be hard headed but he needs to be shown that what he thinks are actions of love for grandma, can actually cause her death...could he live with that? He needs to be educated on the disease, invite him to come to this site and read all the questions, replies and stories.

You might write him a letter and begin by telling him that you are glad that he continues to visit with grandma and you are sure his visits are looked forward to. You are sure that he loves her and that he wants the best for her. I would go on to explain grandma's condition, what happens with dementia or alzheimers, how it will only progress and worsen, how she needs to have 24 hour care and be watched for her own safety. Tell him about this site and ask him to read it. If you want you may invite him for a meeting with her doctor if the doctor agrees. You might finish off by saying that everything that is being done is for her own good however you understand his concern. I do not know how much you would want to go into the ramifications of him trying to remove her and what he would be faced with. I would try to make it as pleasant as possible and non threatening. You need to demonstrate that you are doing everything within your power to care for Mom and appease him and quell his fears.

On the other hand, possibly you need to take a long hard look at the facility and make sure that it is a good place for Mom to be. Does his anger and wish to remove grandma have any merit? Can grandma live with you or any other family member and be taken care of?

I was told in no uncertain terms that my parent needed to be placed into a nursing home to live. I have been the caregiver and did not think it was necessary although it would have been a relief from a lot of work. I sought a doctor to help and he came up with the correct mix of medications and she is able to continue living in her home with me as caregiver.

Check out your options and approach this with care and love and if he does not want to listen, you will have no alternative but to seek legal assistance.

God Bless You on Your Journey

I am going through the same thing with a sibling who has threatened to kidnap our mother, who lives with me, and have change her will and POA. To prevent this from happening, I am having her declared incompetent and obtaining guardianship. This is a painful process as my sibling has been conducting a campaign against me, accusing me of all sorts of things, and some believe the lies, as they do not know the facts and don't bother to find out what is going on. It is also difficult because my mother is paranoid because of her dementia and will tell my sibling all kinds of hurtful things. I agree with the previous posters: communicate with the nephew, he may take her statements at face value and be well intentioned. If he is not well intentioned and wants to exploit her, then protections can be put into place so that he cannot contact her or worst case scenario, kidnap her and put her in danger.

Capacity aside, just because she has dementia doesn't mean your mother isn't having a wretched time in that particular ALF. Do double-check everything is ok with her living conditions and that she's being treated well before you act on the (possibly quite justified, I don't know) assumption that she's just being contrary. And I completely agree, talk to nephew unless you're already on terrible terms with him. Best of luck x