Parents have had increasing dementia for past 15 years (mom) and past year (dad). They both drive. Are we liable?

The topic of driving has been ongoing since last August. Daddy owns three parcels of land near his house. The land is leased for agricultural purposes. He doesn't own any livestock, but likes to check on the renters' activities. He can access the parcels by one-lane county roads and/or by the two-lane farm-to-market (speed limit 65; he likes 25 mph). First, we discussed his driving. He broke his promise to stay off of the main roads countless times. Second, I took the license plates off his truck and reported it to the sheriff's office. Third, I submitted a request to the DMV to test him and asked them to withhold my name. He failed! Although he had been studying the handbook (which I gave him), he missed 17 out of 30 questions. Now, his license is suspended. Fourth, I called my insurance agent and asked your very question. The agent said to talk with an attorney, but if he doesn't have a valid driver's license, the insurance company will not cover a claim if he's driving. So, I reported the info to his insurance company and currently awaiting a notice from them. Fifth, we disabled the truck by removing the fuse to the fuel injector. Now, he thinks his 2010 fully-loaded truck is a piece of junk. He's willing to sell it for 40% less than blue book value. If it helps, on Thanksgiving he was going to have me arrested for stealing his license plates, but he couldn't work the automated phone system at the sheriff's office. So, I had to call the sheriff to come arrest me. Fortunately, a deputy we already knew quickly understood and came to our aid; however, I was told that if Daddy insisted, I would have been arrested. I wish you well.

My mother in law started getting lost. We spoke to the doctor who ordered a driving test for her.( Pennsylvania). She failed the test. She was required to turn over her license. After the state took away her license she continued to drive anyway and said no one was going to stop her. We had to put a "locked club" on her car. As POA, if you know they can't drive, you are liable. You cannot reason with someone with dementia. The behaviour you see is worsening dementia. Your parents need a neuro/psycology to stage their dementia. My mother in law has had 3. It will assist you in decision making and relieve some anguish you feel when you see they are worse than you knew. All of this done in love, is in their best interest.

There are many reasons your parents should not drive, but I understand your frustration with the situation. I was in your situation at one time. One option is not to take the keys, but take the car. If you have access to the car with another set of keys, then drive it and tell them a light came on and you dropped it off to get fixed. Reasoning with them will not work. If they were driving with expired tags and license, then it really isn't going to matter what the DMV tells them anyway. There are many issues here. Depending on the state, you may also be responsible for their well being, meaning that if they really injure themselves, like falling again and you don't get help for them, then social workers may be called in. It sounds like you are doing the right thing in putting them in a facility that can handle them. Otherwise, you would need 24 hour in-home care and that can get expensive. When Dementia or Alzheimer's is involved, then there is always the chance that your parent could wander. You did a good thing by taking the dog. I am sure that you are under a lot of emotional stress. I am a care coach and would be happy to talk with you at no cost or obligation.

Desert192 - I agree that in-home-care more closely aligns to parents wants and I pushed hard for this. But I was overruled b/c no one person can take on mom when she gets into one of her neurotic tirades. Also, Dad is a people person, so once we get him there, he will love getting to interact with lots of people.

Lucycat - I agree. But this place approved them to start at Independent care and will ensure both of them take their medication twice a day. They have a nurse 24/7 and they will not have to move or downsize as their health/circumstances decline.

my sisters MIL got pretty nutty and would walk up and down indy streets with a shotgun offering to cleanse the opposition to the caucasion race. crazy or not i cant help but find that hilarious..

You are in a hard place because they are going to be totally uncooperative to move and resistant (if not total refusal) to in home caregiving assistance. Your only other option is to document all your observations and concerns for them to continue to care for themselves and call in APS.

APS will evaluate the circumstances and consult with physicians and coordinate services needed. Prepare yourself that they may evaluate as "not ideal, but not life threatening" and say they will revisit in 3 months or whatever. Then you have to decide not to enable your parents by rescuing them with bill paying, getting groceries, managing meds, etc....hard to do but it is for their own good so they don't hurt themselves or burn the house down. APS can consult with drs as well to have them fully evaluated.

If parents refuse services or dismiss services, then all you can do is report back to case worker.

I once read, parents are entitled to make decisions, even bad ones....hard for us children to watch and accept.

As far as the car, fill out the form and report to DMV. List the dr on the form. I think it should be mandatory for all seniors to have a drs note and take a driving test every year to renew their liscence after 75. If the car is not renewed then report to police and have it impounded and explain your concern. Request that they not allow dad to take back car without new liscense and drivers test.

You say that you will move them into independent living. I don't think that is the best place. I would say you need to at least put them in assisted living. There are nurses and staff to keep up with their medications and other personal needs. I had to take the keys from my dad this past year. I took them when he wasn't looking and don't regret it. He was furious for awhile, but I (and his doctor) kept telling him he could no longer drive. My brother and I moved the car from his house. I know it's heartbreaking and you have feelings of guilt. But how will you feel if he causes harm to someone else or himself. What if it were a child? Please do what you need to do to keep everyone safe and good luck.

If you/they can afford in home caregiver it probably would be best solution.
Agree with comment that they would listen to Dr. if he told them - no more driving, must have in home services, etc. - maybe he would even write "prescription" for these. Their generation seems to listen to "authority" figures.
Got my Mom to quit driving by emphasizing "what if you hurt someone else - what if you kill a child, etc." Since she is mentally fine, it made her think enough to give up driving . She realized her dizzy spells could happen in car and what outcome could be.
If they refuse about all you can do is get Dr. to substantiate their mental problems and get guardianship from court. If you are willing to go to this level.
As above - they don't know what they are doing. Someone needs to be the responsible adult and they don't seem capable.
Ditto about the dog - unless these is an in home caregiver - they can't be trusted to take care of it.

Police will impound a vehicle without registration. I suppose it is parked in a garage or out of site, else it would have been impounded, it will cost you a lot if they tow and imoound If you can get to the car, but not the keys, disconnect the battery, or buy a boot for $159. A boot is the gadget cops put on tires in urban areas for people with unpaid parking tickets....boots are on the internet, people use them to lock wheels on generators and construction equipment. If you cannot get I the house, how will you be able to get them to move to independent living? That is the bigger problem.

I would encourage you to consider in home health care. It cost less then moving your parents and they also will receive better care. Most home health companies have medication management programs. Its been proven to improve the quality of life for most seniors when they are able to age in place. Be sure to find an agency that is experienced in Memory Care. I have worked with several families who had parents that insisted on driving. We were able to place a caregiver in the home that drove and would drive parents to stores, appointments and etc.

You have to more than "try the DMV" you have to put it in writing. You have to have the MD put his report in writing. Phone calls won't do it, and without written hard evidence that you tried to get him off the road, you are wide open to lawsuits. Protect yourself. When we finally got mom off the road, we all breathed a lot easier.

When you say you tried the DMV, do you mean you put in a report or got his doc to put in a report recommending the license be revoked, or did you just go to the DMV, pay the fine for lapsed registration, and he passed the eye test so was given a renewal? Either way, keep the documentation. If you can't legally take the car or the keys (theft) or disable it such that he can't arrange to have it fixed, then I cannot see how you should be held liable for him driving. I hesitate to ask - but what happens if Mom gets behind the wheel, since she has the more long-standing problem?

The system tends very much to err on the side of self-determination. You may have done all you can, and like lots of others, are in the unhappy position of having to wait until something worse happens. It sounds like his judgement is quite bad (has it been that way all his life?) but he is letting you check into and help with finances at least a little. It is very, very hard to say whether you have enough evidence that he cannot manage his own affairs to fight for a guardianship, versus just doing what you are doing now. An experienced eldercare attorney in your area could be helpful in that regard, as well as a comprehensive geriatric evaluation...from what you are saying, he may formally test out as having only mild cognitive impairment at this point. And with you encouraging and acheiving better control of the diabetes he may function a little better for at least a little longer too.

Can you replace the sweet goodies with no-sugar-added or sugarfree versions?

We tried the DMV - they approved the renewal. Dad can appear very normal. His dementia is mild and recent. He talks in generalities and redirects questions back to the other person and usually remembers the conversation. We have not figured out how to distinguish between his forgetting or denial. Example: Does he eat ice cream and candy because he forgot he has diabetes or because he refuses to acknowledge he has diabetes? His finances indicated he was paying for a few scams, a lost cell phone and a country club membership he didn't use. Is this dementia or denial? His investments are all in stocks. Is this dementia or denial?

My hubby's mom and dad were a little like this except they did not drive, so no one else was ever seriously injured. It did not end well. We did not really understand much about anything, and it is hard to say whether we would have gotten anywhere...BIL did actually go and try to get more help, but MIL threatened to call police on HIM and he backed off...social services did get involved finally, but we lost FIL to an aneurysm he declined surgery for and the house was a horrible disaster once we got back in. Social Services lady said not the worst she'd seen, but it was the worst thing we'd seen. I wish you well, this is tough stuff, the person who noted you will not be able to reason with them is correct. They have lost reasoning ability at this point. Don't be afraid of at least trying to do what needs done. The hatefulness is a barrier, but it is not because you are doing the wrong thing. My MIL was mad at us for throwing out a bottle of aspirin that smelled like vinegar...we all suffered with memories of the swarming cockroaches...before we realized just how bad it was, that it had gone way beyond MILs chronic mental illness...and even at that point, BIL was too ashamed/embarrassed to take photographs to document how hazardous it was in case we would have had to go to court to keep MIL from trying to go back and live there alone as she said she was going to do. You won't need be sorry you tried to help, even if they end up hating you for it. Document the conditions and document your efforts.

you can handle thru DR or DMV of their state. turn them in and state should send them paperwork to come in and take test or turn in license. do not trust them to drive ever again and if you don't get rid of keys and car they will find a way to get around it. do it now or you will regret it-its your responsibility.

Are you liable? You betcha, even I would sue you unless you called the cops.

For god's sake if he has no license or registration, just call the cops and tell them what is going on. They will handle it.

Clarification - They live in their home and will not allow anyone to come into their home. They are adamant that they want to stay in their house, continue driving, don't need help. Reality: Their finances were slipping (we've taken over and are fixing). He drives too fast and can get lost. Their car license and registrations were expired. He lost his cell phone (this could have been on purpose, b/c she called him constantly if he went somewhere with out her). They cant figure out how to turn on the TV. They go out twice a day for all their meals (and have for the past 15 years). They didn't have a working refrigerator (we got that fixed). We want to take their car keys, but they wont cook or allow anyone into their house. Therefore, we will have to move them into a place where they can be supervised.

Are your parents in a reasonable state of mind? No. Then unfortunately they can't be reasoned with. The new normal.

They should never be given the dog back either. I know that's a very difficult pill to swallow. We think of pets as comforting and members of the family and how awful it is to deny your parents of the dog that they have loved and cared for but if your folks are unable to care for themselves, and it sounds like that's the case, then they can't care for an animal. And by the way, there's another post on this board about caring for a dog when one has dementia. It's in the "Questions" section. There are a lot of comments as well.

When I had to take the keys away from my dad he didn't have dementia. He was very social and I knew it was going to be awful. But we just had the discussion but again, my dad was a reasonable man at the time. Your parents aren't. Do you go to the Dr.'s with either of them? You can have a Dr. tell them that they are not to drive anymore (preferably a Dr. who is an older man as this generation tends to listen more to older male Dr.'s). Can you and your sibling(s) heavy-hand your folks into giving up their keys? As in, they give up their keys and that's that? This place that you moved them to, are there RN's, social workers, Dr.'s on staff? You all may have to get together and gang up on your dad about his driving.

As for liability, legally I don't know but I'm sure there are people here who will know from experience. Your mom has advanced dementia so that's a no-brainer about the driving issue. And if your dad can't remember to take his medication then he shouldn't be driving either. I think they're a liability on the road but legally, again, I don't know. I think the hallmark on the driving issue is if someone can't participate in their own care then they shouldn't be driving. You have to drive to your dad everyday to ensure that he's taking his medication. This isn't someone I'd want on the road with me.

You said that you moved them into a place where they can be cared for. Doesn't this place have staff that administers the medication? There are alternatives to your driving there everyday. Nursing agencies offer professional caregivers, usually a 2-hour minimum, and they do medication reminders. It's pricey though. However I do know some patients whose insurance pays for X many hours a day. It'd be worth looking into.

You did the right thing getting your folks into a more secure environment. All of this other stuff can be worked out and hopefully your stress with lessen some.