Can my Dad's POA take over without his knowledge if he is competent?

They said they accepted him with flying colors the first week he went to rehab. The rehab facility told me they have no record of an assessment. He currently needs help with everything so how that is possible I do not know. I do know the facility has a separate company to take care of private care and that is a separate bill that is paid. Anything over the the limit of services provided under the plan is charged for each occurrence (it adds up quickly). I was called again today by the rehab at work to come settle my Dad down. He was calling for help to "go home". I spent 4 1/2 hours with him...very exhausting. His POA son visits only during the day when my Dad is at his best for a short visit a few times a week. I have not missed a day since he was admitted to Rehab. It is very exhausting...I skip lunch and dinner and get home usually between 8 and 9 p.m. Much more difficult than when he lived with me. No family members are there in the evening but me and on the weekends they scatter too.

KTR, Are you sure that the ISL facility has already accepted your father? I think most facilities evaluate applicants to be sure the facility can handle the resident's needs. If they can't, they won't accept them.

pamstegman -That is what it is call "Independent Senior Living" that is why I am concerned that he will not be able to handle living there, He needs more one on one care. It looks more like a beautiful hotel. Most of the activities they have planned are done by 3 p.m. (then what).

KTR it sounds like he is in Independent Living, not an ALF. Make sure they have nurses on 24/7. And if you didn't see aides in the hallways, there aren't any. There has to be written MD orders for any assistance and that's an added charge per month. We did not want a place with a kitchen, because mom would burn the place down! Mom is never in her room, she is much too busy with activities and bus trips.

pamstegman - it sounds like your MIL does not have her own apartment but rather a private room similar to a private room at Nursing Home...am I correct? Where my father will be he will have his own apartment with a small living room, kitchen, bedroom/bathroom. When I visited there were not many people around and the hallways were empty (he will be on the fourth floor). I have heard that workers usually have around seven residents that they are responsible for at a time. I know at the Rehab center he sometimes has to wait over 30 minutes to get help to use the bathroom. Since he is not self-sufficient at all right now and might not ever be...that's my concern and the concern of the nursing staff at rehab.

I am hoping my father with be able to adapt. The cost of the ALF he is going to will cost a minimum of $4300 a month. Is your MIL able to walk around on her own. My father can't so he will be dependent on someone pushing him around. My concern is the nights...he will be in his own apartment by himself and not able to do anything on his own. Right now he calls out at the Rehab and they can hear him and someone tries to calm him during the night. I am not sure he will be able to handle being by himself without someone right there. He does act like a child at times. Is your MIL pretty self-sufficient and sociable? Did she want to go there or realize she was better off going to an ALF. Like I said before the nursing staff at Rehab do not believe he will do well at an ALF. However, since he does not have a choice I hope it works for him. He is 86 going on 87 and I do not want him to feel like he is being deserted by his family. I have heard that is works well for some and not so much for others.

MIL uses a walker. She has a private room with a large bathroom and walk in shower. Aides standby because she has balance issues. They help her with her compression stockings. She has a medic alert pendant she call aides with.
She agreed to go there for a one month trial and chose to stay. She could not possibly manage meds on her own, or do any cooking or cleaning. Nor can she pay bills. No short term memory at all. Urine incontinence. She has a controlling nature, but you don't get to 87 by being a pushover.

I am hoping my father with be able to adapt. The cost of the ALF he is going to will cost a minimum of $4300 a month. Is your MIL able to walk around on her own. My father can't so he will be dependent on someone pushing him around. My concern is the nights...he will be in his own apartment by himself and not able to do anything on his own. Right now he calls out at the Rehab and they can hear him and someone tries to calm him during the night. I am not sure he will be able to handle being by himself without someone right there. He does act like a child at times. Is your MIL pretty self-sufficient and sociable? Did she want to go there or realize she was better off going to an ALF. Like I said before the nursing staff at Rehab do not believe he will do well at an ALF. However, since he does not have a choice I hope it works for him. He is 86 going on 87 and I do not want him to feel like he is being deserted by his family. I have heard that is works well for some and not so much for others.

KTR the most important benefit of an ALF is the social contact with people his own age. From what you wrote he would be alone during the day and quite bored, and then alone at night which can be scary if you can't get up by yourself. My MIL is very safe at the ALF, three meals a day, meds managed and nurses on site 24/7. It's costing us $2800 a month, but well worth the cost.

I have caregiver burnout right now just trying to keep my Dad calm at he Rehab center. He gets so agitated about wanting to home they are afraid he will have a heart attack so they call me to sit with him. I cannot keep spending hours there and I will not be able to spend hours at the ALF if he does not adjust ... this is more exhausting. I know what it is like to be a caregiver because I have been doing it for 14 years (with help). He has people around him 24/7 at the rehab facility but will not get that at the ALF. My fear is that he will not do well there but that does remain to be seen. He thinks he is going home one day soon so it will be a real shock for him when he goes to a strange new place. I have been told to expect him to have a lot more confusion. So maybe I should not care like the others do not care and let whatever happens happen.

KTR, you're brave to want the responsibility of caring for your father at home, but I don't know if you have a clear picture of the round-the-clock work involved. Read the posts on this forum, not just this thread, about caregiver burnout. Let us know what happens.

My father right now cannot walk or bear weight on his own. He can up to another 9 weeks of rehab if they allow him to stay. Given all the care he may need it will probably cost up to $6000 a month or more at the ALF. It would be less with home care because he will not need anyone during the night. Right now I am not sure he would be able to come at all if I alone could not care for him part of the day. I work a 40hour work week. I had been doing it for the last 5 months and I can honestly say having to go visit him on a regular basis is a lot more tiring than having him there when I get home from work. I figured the cost to be cheaper at home. As far as revisiting it in 6 months or a year I am not sure my father will still be around. He has had quite a bit of difficulty just being in rehab and wanting to go home every day that the nurses there feel it will be his demise (as they put it). What bothers me the most is that my siblings who have done nothing have taken over without there being an option. I feel they believe he has had a long life so if he passes so be it.

Thanks, KTR, that gives more context. Congratulations on seeing a Senior Care Specialist. I'm glad you have someone to advise you.

As the Specialist pointed out, you would have to rely heavily on home health care services to keep your father at home. Through a professional agency home help would run about $20 an hour. An independent contractor would probably charge $10 to $12 an hour.

It sounds from your posts as if you have a heavy work schedule. How many hours of outside help would your father need each day? Has he regained his mobility? Is he a fall risk? What would be the total cost to your father of staying at home --- his normal household expenses plus the cost of help? How does that compare to the alternatives?

From your posts, I gather that the decision has already been made to move your father to a particular "independent senior living" facility and you probably aren't going to be able to change that. If that's the case, the point of analyzing the cost of home care is just to satisfy yourself as to how good, or bad, an alternative it was. If your father does not do well in his new home, six months or a year from now you can revisit the whole matter with your siblings and propose to take him into YOUR home if that's what you think is best---with him/the trust paying for the home health care.

My family has already picked the place for him to live. It is known as "Independent Senior Living", however, they claim they can assist him with everything he needs (at a price of course). He will live in a separate apartment on his own. I do not think it is cruel to want him there but is it suitable for someone like him? I had been working with a "Senior Care Specialist" that specializes in placing seniors in the best places that are suitable for their needs. He told me that for my father the best place would be at home with home care workers and myself. Next would be a nursing home (which would cost the most). My father is not a rich man so he only has funds for a short time and then what? It is not easy for me to visit my Dad on a regular basis, but I do. The others go when it is convenient for them. Evenings have been the most stressful on him since he has been in rehab and I am the only one there at that time everyday. The also call me from Rehab to calm him down when he gets overly agitated about wanting to go home. That is more exhausting than it was to help care for him at home. Also, my family expects me to be there on the weekends because Sat. & Sun. are my days off. Also, when they do visit they usually go at the same time for about hour and that is it for the rest of the day or week. I have often heard that people quickly decline mentally and physically when moved into a nursing facility---not everyone of course. I just feel so bad for my Dad because I see the fear in eyes and hear it in his voice. I just want him to be in the best place possible for him no matter where it is. I know so many people that care for their parents in there own homes even though it is difficult. It is also very difficult if you work full-time to visit on a regular basis especially during the winter months.

KTR, This has got to be hard for you. But let's focus on your father.

Ten weeks ago, your father lost the ability to walk; six weeks ago he developed pulmonary edema and was hospitalized; now he's in rehab and the nurses say he needs one-on-one care after discharge. He's obviously suffering a fast decline in his health and his needs are increasing.

Where can he best get the help he needs?

You believe that you can give him that in his own home, with home nursing help. Your brother believes that the best way to give him that is to place him in a facility that provides professional 24-hour care. Your other siblings agree with him. I'm sure both you and your siblings are trying to do what's best for your father; you just disagree on what that is.

If your brother has legal authority for what he plans to do, you will have to accept that. Then you will need to work together to make your father's remaining time as sweet as possible.

And remember that even if he didn't have that authority, what he intends to do is the same thing many, many loving families decide is best. There's nothing cruel or unreasonable about it.

BTW: assisted living doesn't necessarily mean living alone in a small apartment. Many assisted living facilities are more like hospital wards with home-y private rooms.

Why don't you ask your dad's case worker at rehab where he would most likely be placed if he were discharged to either assisted living or a nursing home (or a combination of both---they do exist in what are called "continuing care" facilities).

Visit those places; imagine how you could help your father feel "at home" there (mementos and photos from home; frequent visits; daily phone calls). Work with your siblings to relieve your father of concern about you, them and himself.

Good luck.

I really appreciate all the responses and questions I am receiving. To answer some of the questions, I do have a full-time job and can afford to purchase a home on my own. My siblings believe I a living there for free but that is not true. Do I pay a monthly rent...no, but I do split the cost of many things and also pay for anything that is mine. I buy my own food, clean the house, do yard work, shovel snow, run all the errands, take my father to all doctor appointments, use my paid time off from work for him when needed which is more than what I get for myself. Have taken four leaves of absences in the past 14 years (for Mom and Dad). Manage all medications, conferences with doctors, research medications, doctors, etc. Is that living for free...I do not believe so. My Dad is in a Rehabilitation facility because he became less mobile after my Mother passed. He also slowed down a bit after having both knees replaced and a benign tumor removed from his spine some years ago. My sister is a physical therapist assistant and she thought it best to put restrictions on him for his safety which resulted in him doing less and less which in turn caused muscle loss and weakness. She also put fear in him about falling. Then six weeks ago he was hospitalized for one week for fluid on the lungs and he could no longer even stand on his own after that. He had also stopped walking altogether about a month earlier. As soon as my Dad went into the hospital my brother took over everything and said my Dad is not allowed back home when he completes rehab. My Dad had paid caregivers including my sister (yes, she was paid by my Dad) taking care of him when I was not there before he was hospitalized. The nurses in rehab believe my Dad will not be able to survive in ALF because they believe he needs more one on one care. In addition, all my Dad wants is to go home and gets quite verbal about it. Not sure how my Dad will do living in a small apartment by himself (especially at night). My fear is my Dad will end up in a nursing home. He is 86 years old and has many cardiac issues. He gets so upset some days at Rehab about not being in his own home that they fear he could have a heart attack. If my Dad becomes strong enough to come home I would rather he spends he last days on earth in his own home or at least with family. However, my family is forbidding him to have that as an option. I do not believe that is their call. My brother who has done nothing in now in control of my Dad and me. I am looking for a home but unfortunately it is a sellers market so it is going to cost me more than I want to think about right now. I have so much stress on me with my Dad and what is going to happen to him, visiting him daily, working a full-time job, finding a home and then moving, my siblings treating me like dirt, etc. It is so unbelievable to me that I can get such treatment when I made all of there lives much easier by taking on the role of caregiver for my parents. They are all buddies and I stand alone!!

Realtime, your post is interesting. I have a brother who took my father to a lawyer and got all the documents. The only thing my father owns now is his condo, because he gambled all his money away. My brother is inheriting all of it and so he won't put my father into a home at all even tho needed because Medicaid would take the condo to pay them back and my brother would lose the only inheritance. Its sad, and scary for my Dad. There's nothing I can do because I do not have the thousands and thousands to fight my brother legally over anything.

Shakingdustoff, you have really done your homework! Congrats! Hope that you decide what to do....

Why is your father in a rehabilitation facility? What happened? A stroke? Heart attack? Broken bones? What type of care do his doctors say he will need when he comes out of rehab? Will he be able to walk? Bathe, eat, dress himself? Go to the bathroom on his own?

KTR, this asnwer addresses only this question of yours:

"Another question: my brother was able to move all of my father's bank accounts into another account and it names him as the Trust. What does that mean? I thought all of my father's children are Trust on his accounts not just him.

A person can't be named as a "trust" of an account. A trust identifies the Settlor, who creates the trust (i.e., your father), who also acts as the Trustee under a revocable living trust.

Successor Trustee(s) will also be identified; they assume responsibility for carrying out the terms of the trust after the Settlor dies.

A trust is typically titled "John James Doe Living Trust, under date of ____ __, 20..." Or if it's a different kind of trust, such as an irrevocable trust, the wording would be similar except the trust would be referred to as an irrevocable trust.

Beneficiaries are still named and identified.

I don't really understand how any bank account could name your brother as "Trust." This just doesn't make any sense.

If you mean he's identified as Successor Trustee, that does make sense.

As to all the other bank accounts, the same issue applies. You could be Successor Co-Trustees of the John James Doe Trust..., but you can't be named as a Trust.

I think sometimes these trust issues can really be confusing!

One possibility is that your brother is a jerk and you need to protect yourself and your father with legal advice. Understanding all the legal angles and your own position is never a bad idea --- and you don't have to start by going to a lawyer. You can do research on the Internet to make sure you understand the various legal instruments and what they allow.

But it might be worthwhile to explore this from another angle at the same time. Let's assume that your brother is acting within the scope of his responsibility: that is, at some time your father gave him his power of attorney, named him sole trustee of the family trust, and made him executor of his will. Your brother isn't lying or trying to rip you off, and your father doesn't remember or understand what he himself did a couple of years ago---or your father is fibbing to avoid upsetting you.

Let's assume your brother is looking to the future and believes that sooner or later, your father will need 24-hour professional care, which he can get better in a facility than at home. If your brother is acting in good faith, even if he's wrong, it makes sense to sell your father's house now and invest the funds. That will help finance his long-term care and provide for unexpected expenses.

You say your brother resents your not having a mortgage or house payment. In other words, you think he objects to your living in your father's house for "free." (If he believes that, of course, he has no idea how hard a caregiver works.)

But there's another possibility. Maybe he is worried that you aren't planning for your own future, that you won't be able to afford your own home after your father dies and you're hoping to stay on in your father's home rent-free because "you've earned it." So he thinks you need to plan for your own future now, rather than later, or you'll be in deep financial trouble.

What are your plans for yourself? What do you hope to do with your life after caregiving? Would you be better off if your father went into assisted living? (Please note, I'm a great believer in assisted living when it's the right facility; my mother seems ten years younger and several times healthier since she moved into assisted living.)

My best to you...

"Shakingdustoff" are situations are very similar! However, my brother had a successful career with an automobile company but retired early (at 57 yrs old) because the headquarters moved out-of-state and he chose not to move with them. He currently live in an over 3,000 square foot professionally decorated home. He is married to an EXTREMELY jealous wife. My brother's 27 year old daughter has a two year old and is not married (although she does live with the father of her child). Neither one of them have good paying jobs so my brother helps them financially. I know this really bugs my brother so I think he is taking his frustrations out on me. Another question: my brother was able to move all of my father's bank accounts into another account and it names him as the Trust. What does that mean? I thought all of my father's children are Trust on his accounts not just him. Just before my Dad went into the physical rehab center he told me that he does not trust my brother and does not want him seeing any of his bank information. My father thinks I am managing everything for him but I have been warned not to let him know anything. When my father ask me questions I have to lie to him which I hate doing but I am not sure what the consequences would be if I told him the truth.

It sounds like someone is getting a POA confused with conservatorship. Someone can't just take over unless they have full conservatorship and that costs thousands and thousands to get legally.

No. A POA can't "take over" if the person is legally competent and does not want him to take over.

Thank you all for your advice. I went through my father's papers and cannot find anything about a POA. I found a last will and testament that names my brother as a personal representative of his estate upon my father's death. To answer the question about my brother's motive -- he is angry because I no longer have a mortgage. I sold my condo when it became to difficult for me to go back and forth from my place to my parents to help with my Mom. Plus my Dad needed help with her during the night. Once my mother passed my brother insisted my Dad move in to an assisted living facility and as he put it "kick her ass out". He told my Dad I was getting rich living there without a mortgage. My Dad did not want to move so I stayed with him. He had to deal with a lot of grief after my Mom passed and we helped each other get through it. I am more than happy to buy my own home and have my Dad move in (rent free), however, I am not sure that will be possible unless I can help him on my own for a least part of the time (that is why he is in rehab). Somehow my brother has convinced my other siblings that I am rich (which is not true) and that I did not help care for my Mom. That cannot be further from the truth! My Dad's sister and her husband are appalled at my siblings. They know how much I sacrificed to help my parents because the rest would not. They know I have been taken advantaged of. I would love to challenge him because right now he is walking around like he is King! My Dad's sister said to me...."you do all the work and now he swoops in a takes over telling you what you are responsible for and how soon you have to move out". Does anyone know if he is required to show me proof that he is the POA and what he does have power over?

I would have a consultation with an attorney (perhaps it would take an hour or so) and see what your legal rights are regarding the situation. If you like the attorney, perhaps you could hire him. I would have more understanding of your brother if he had helped you out a lot with your folks with errands, caregiving, etc., but unfortunately it sounds as if his primary concern is the inheritance.

Your brother cannot "make himself" POA. This is an authority which has to be delegated pursuant to a Durable POA, if that's what's at issue, and executed by your father. Unless the document was forged, and/or your father wasn't of "sound mind" when he executed, your father designated your brother to hold the power of attorney.

What authority your brother may have is dependent on the wording of the DPOA, which like a medical POA (or living will) can include whatever authority and medical justification your father wanted and/or recommended by the attorney who drafted the document.

If it didn't require any medical situation to precede your brother's activation of authority, then it could be that he's acting within his scope of authority, although unethically and apparently with great self interest.

Beyond that, what you wrote doesn't make sense:

"He took my Dad to the bank a couple of years ago so that my Dad could get his accounts in order and make out a will. My father thought that the POA is assigned to carry out his wishes that everything be divided equally among his five children when he passed. He did not realize what it fully meant."

It sounds like your father was confused a few years ago between the purpose of a DPOA and a Will, and that your brother's intentions are not just recent.

Was there an attorney involved at all? And does your father actually have a Will?

Frankly, it sounds to me as if your brother is "B'S'ing" and manipulating you by telling you what your alleged obligations are to pay bills, etc. DEMAND to see proof! Make him produce these documents which require you to pay bills, etc., which I doubt really exist.

Somehow you'll need to find any document(s) when your brother is out of the house and see exactly what authority and arrangements they created. Make copies secretly, list the things your brother has done and hire your own elder law attorney as you most likely will need legal (and/or law enforcmeent) intervention to straighten out this situation.

Your attorney can contact the banks and ask for verification of your brother's authority. Sometimes they'll cooperate, but your attorney may have to begin litigation and use the discovery process to get relevant documentation.

If you do have to take this route, raise the issue with your own attorney about getting an injunction to stop your brother from any further action.

I do think your father needs to be apprised of the situation, but I would be very concerned that if he didn't in fact grant this authority to your brother, he would be very upset to realize what's happening behind his back. And the fact that's he in a rehab facility could make him feel helpless to stop the situation and impede his recovery.

I would see a lawyer first before informing your father. And I wouldn't tell the siblings what you're doing until you've seen an attorney.

But there are some other issues that are a bit confusing...why does your brother want you out of the house? Why aren't your other siblings concerned about the financial abuse?

No, your brother who has POA can't take over and make decisions without your dad's knowledge. And selling your dad's house out from underneath him is unethical and wrong. If your dad is competent he needs to know that his house is going on the market. You may need to contact an elder law attorney.

Just like to add that I have not seen any paperwork (copy of the POA) but my brother says that my father's money and home will go directly to his care and nothing else. He told me that I am responsible now for caring for my father's home until I move out. Any bills that come in I must pay even if it is something my father requested. My father and I split the cost of many things. Also, I took four leaves of absences since 2000 to care for my mother and father....no one else did. Also, my paid time off (vac, sick, personal) has been spent for the most part to care for my parents. He has never taken them to a doctor's appointment.

He took my Dad to the bank a couple of years ago so that my Dad could get his accounts in order and make out a will. My father thought that the POA is assigned to carry out his wishes that everything be divided equally among his five children when he passed. He did not realize what it fully meant.