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Deeandfam1216 Asked February 2015

Dad is increasingly paranoid about his money and won't listen to suggestions about his assets. What to do?

Dad was suddenly deathly ill 3.5 yrs ago and now his heart has gotten a little stronger and doing much better...whew !!! However, his blood pressure, anxiety and increasing paranoia has gotten extremely bad. He is very resistant to aging (I understand this) but his is exceptionally paranoid about his money !!! He is 82 yrs old, and won't listen to reason that he needs to do something with his annuity that is in his name alone ... he also has ALOT of cash in his home and won't listen to reason to put it somewhere safe...he is also VERY paranoid about his monthly cash; I take him and my mom a LARGE amount of cash each at the same time each month...the only thing they buy is household food, a few odds and ends (maybe total $ 100) and go to the casino every wk or every other wk and play off only their winnings (less than $ 200)...so I know Dad is stashing it at home. He showed my son where it is kept 3.5 yrs ago but now he is paranoid and won't show anyone...what if something happens to Dad and then we don't know where it is ??? He is increasing forgetful, loses focus, doesn't remember important things to him (his grandson) and tends to get very very mean from time to time. I have talked to his PCP about it and he is starting to test Dad for memory issues; this puts Dad into a tailspin !!! Dad is starting to lose his hygiene (he never really did take showers or brush his teeth regularly) and he is starting to talk about goofy things/inappropriate things in public and at home to me...things I don't need to know lol...(about sex w/Mom-btw they don't ) or about his personal 'area'...and his reasoning on things is starting to be 'off'...I realize this is dementia, but dealing with Dad's resistance is harder than the actual condition, believe me !!! Since my Mom has Alzheimers 82yr old, I'm sure he is thinking that it could happen to him. The best thing that I did was talk with Dad's PCP about it, gave him alot of examples and now his PCP is trying to find out. Dad is on alot of meds for the last 3.5 yrs but this paranoia about his money is driving ME crazy...I am his DPOA and have done nothing wrong but his lack of trust is hurtful...I have explained this to him but he just laughs which is MORE hurtful...He also tends to get physically and verbally mean to my mom so I know I have my hands full with him. If anyone has some suggestions, or even comments I am all ears !!! I have also contacted his atty and he said to let him know more as it goes on...thanks to all who've read this and hopefully advise me at some level...this site really helps me get alot of insight into the Aging of my parents....

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PcoG123 Apr 2015
Praying for each and everyone of you on this site. I feel your frustration and pain. Hang in there. When your at the end of your rope, the only way to go is UP.
Don't sweat the small stuff. God Bless you and Happy Easter / Passover weekend.:)
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wolflover451 Feb 2015
pargirl: I feel for you too. I know that my dad is in NH since 8/14 and he has yet asked where he exactly is. The day that he went in I told him he would have to stay here (didn't say where) until he got stronger. That will never happen, yes it felt bad to "trick" him but in the long run, he is better there getting meals at regular times, taking his meds (which he wouldn't do for my mother), getting help to bathroom and bathed regularly. it was just too hard for my mom and with falling alot, she just couldn't handle it anymore. And you have to play their mind games cause they don't know any different.
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pargirl Feb 2015
I agree with samara. Unfortunately, the last straw for me (while my dad was recovering from open heart surgery) was when I saw my mom get so mad and hit him because he wouldn't get out of bed and take her to eat. That was it and I knew something had to be done. It was for his safety and to be honest mine too since I was living there trying to help. I found a great facility for respite care. Thought it would be for 2 or 3 weeks. It's been 5 years. Her disease has taken it's toll on her but I know she is safe and well taken care of. I have to warn you though, the day I took her I tricked her by saying let's go for a drive. She jumped at the chance to go somewhere. I had a bag already packed for her and when I started to leave it was ugly.....very ugly. I didn't go see her for 3 weeks per their instructions so she could get acclimated to the facility. When I finally did, I was scared to death that the ugliness would start all over and she would try to leave with me. They had instructed me to say "I'll be back in a minute" and then leave. After I left the area or room she didn't even remember that I had been there. Not to say we didn't have some bumpy times but it eventually got to the point where she didn't even ask to go with me anymore. Sorry to go on about MY story, but when they start getting physical that is the time to do something and not wait. After all, if your mom has dementia/Alzheimer's too, she has no way of knowing what is happening. By the way.....don't know if you know this about heart attacks or heart issues but that is a big side effect.....anxiety, depression, depending on age some brain dysfunction/memory etc. I learned all this not only with my dad but husband too. Good Luck to you.
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GrandmaLynn5 Feb 2015
When I was going through the rage stage with my mother (and she's still in it now and then), I found a book, Elder Rage: Take My Father, Please. by Jacqueline Marcell a helpful read. It is about the issues she dealt with with her parents and also a source book for help with a variety of issues. Maybe it will be a help to you, too.

Money was an issue for my folks as well. Eventually I was able to move all of their money into one bank, and the banker has worked with them every step of the way, including coming to their apartment for notarizing documents. If they have a banking relationship with someone they trust, that person might also be helpful to you. Wishing you success on this journey.
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samara Feb 2015
Very tough situation, you will need assistance from other professionals to get dad out of the house and not able to return--because if he returns he will be a danger to mom. Dad may need memory care, and perhaps at his next doctor appointment they can have people waiting to take him inpatient for an eval, and transfer to NH. It doesn't sound safe for mom at all!
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pargirl Feb 2015
Great answer irishboy. I was thinking the same thing when I was answering but didn't get to it. My father in law was VERY concerned about the food in the retirement home they went into.AND nursing homes of the past. Oh how he was afraid of those. He did not have dementia but was so afraid of lack of food or quality.
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irishboy Feb 2015
Something else to remember in dealing with parents in their 80s, they remember the Great Depression as children. So while in some cases it is dementia, in others it could be the fear or running out of money.

Although both of my parent's fathers maintained jobs throughout the 30s, they remember tough times. Times that none of us can imagine today, although who knows what is coming in this country.

The "poor" today get welfare, food stamps, and have cable TV. There was no welfare or food stamps in the 30s. Those who are in their 80s remember seeing people on the street going door to door looking to work for food. You don't forget that.
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pargirl Feb 2015
I'm sick for you. We are all the sandwich generation or we wouldn't be on this site. Although my dad is not paranoid he certainly worries about his money. He has enough for himself and my mom who is in Alzheimer's facility but I still get calls once a day to check on accounts. I agree with everyone that has said there is no reasoning with your dad. When I put my mom in an Alzheimer's facility they kept telling me to meet her on her journey which I soon understood to mean playing a game. You HAVE to get on your dad's level and play a game with him. Don't argue but try to stay a step ahead of him. You know he's paranoid. I love the idea of the safe with lock. Give him the key but make a key for yourself before you give it to him.. Your mom needs help on this just as my dad did with my mom. He just didn't know where to turn. She is waiting for you/someone to help her. Yes, your dad is going to be furious but it will be for his own good, safety and dignity that you step in with guardianship/attny/dr. etc. most of all safety and dignity. We all want to go out sitting in our favorite chair, watching the ocean, mountains, whatever but let's face it.....doesn't always happen that way. This is a journey not only for our parents but for us also. Here's hoping our son is taking notes and that my husband or myself will let him or be able to let him help us. Good luck and may God Bless you
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Patathome01 Feb 2015
Your dad could be suffering dementia as a mental decline with older age. Would a social worker help to ease his anxiety? For example, my mother had suffered mental decline, thank God, no dementia, and wanted her own control of her money. At one point, she thought I was stealing from her when I was POA and only using her funds to pay for her required assisted care. A family member had to take over as POA when I could no longer do it and worked with her social worker to ease Mom's concerns.
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Veronica91 Feb 2015
I would be very concerned about the parents going to the casino with potentially large amounts of cash. Doubtless other regulars are watching them.
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Llamalover47 Feb 2015
The elder's mind does not work rationally. As the saying goes, that ship has left port. My mother would give her last dollar to the person on the phone, begging for money until I moved in with her (yes, a different state than mine) and halted that!
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terryjack1 Feb 2015
It does sound like dementia. He needs to have some control and big changes make him more resistant. Find a way for him to believe 'it's' his idea-that makes people more willing to do something. The more you try to reason the more he is determined to maintain his ways. I'm not sure giving him a lot of cash each week if a good thing. What does your mom say about all of this? Can you enlist her help with your dad? It's worth exploring. I know dementia related behaviors can be very difficult to deal with. Contact your local chapter of the Alzheimer's Association to get more tips on how to manage these behaviors.
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IsntEasy Feb 2015
Abandon the thought of reasoning with Dad. It will only frustrate you and anger him (potentially making him more paranoid). My advice is to make small moves, see what seems to work best, and proceed cautiously from there. First, I'd try delivering money more often, but lesser amounts and tied into the occasions when he spends it. So, let's say you usually give him $2000 a month and they typically hit the casino on Wednesdays. I'd explain VERY SIMPLY to dad that I HAD TO start coming to see them every Tuesday and that I would be dropping off weekly cash then. I'd give him $300 ($100 for stuff and $200 to gamble – I doubt the veracity of their story of "only playing off of winnings"). I wouldn't say a word about $300 x 4 not adding up to $2000. Have a 'Plan B' at the ready.

There's no such thing as secrets, so you've got to get the cash out of the house. It's endangering them.

But, I would definitely consider that there is no cash, that they are actually gambling it all at the casino. Dementia often removes the ability to control one's behavior, so if you liked to gamble, but always controlled yourself to using the 'house's money', that control is lessened or eliminated and you now gamble until it's gone.

Hygiene lapses, fits of anger, inappropriateness...your dad's dementia sounds like it's more advanced than 'mild'.

Does your dad trust his doctor? Send his doc a written explanation of your concerns. Be sure to include his violence towards your mom. Be clear and concise. "Dad rarely brushes his teeth. He goes for months without bathing. He has pushed Mom out of his way." Describe his behaviors simply.

It sounds like the time is nearing for a supportive living arrangement for your Dad. The sooner you get the ball rolling, the better.
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Midkid58 Feb 2015
I agree--maybe time to separate mom and dad. He could seriously hurt her and not really be aware. My dad developed dementia and he became slightly verbally abusive to Mother--it just wrecked her. No amt of us telling her it was not "him" made it ok. Same thing happened with HIS dad. When he became abusive, they had to move him to a NH. Grandma felt so bad-but he did die within a few weeks and he died w/o breaking her heart first.
The money thing is normal. My MIL has no trust of anyone. My hubby is the co-signer on her accts and such, but he has commented that he has no idea how much money she has or where it is. Thank goodness we talked her into seeing an attorney and setting up a trust. She just blindly believed after she died that the 3 kids would peacefully split her things. Finally I told her that the state would appoint a LAWYER to go through her drawers did she make the change. I'm sure mom has cash and stuff stashed all over the house. Luckily she is an extremely OCD person and her home is very organized and when the time comes, we'll deal. But, really, sounds like your mom's well being is at stake. I'd focus in her and not worry about the money right now. You'll find it all eventually--I just feel sorry for your mom. First things first!
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WhyNot Feb 2015
I have early Vascular Dementia. Please get your mother away from him.
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wolflover451 Feb 2015
how well I know your concern. my father also was counting his money every other day. my mom would get so mad but he continued to do it. then things that were once kept safely in a home safe were now to be found lying around anywhere in the house. I don't think there is much you can do about the money except wait things out and eventually you will have to "seek" out the money anywhere it might be in the house. This is what my brother and I did. my dad would hide money in every single shirt one week, then the next it was gone, who knows where. we have now taken care of those issues since he is in a NH but we had to go thru every single thing in the house (paperwork included) to find stuff for the elder attorney cause our mom had no idea where he put things. good luck
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Tryingmybest Feb 2015
Money can be such a nightmare with elderly parents. My folks own four properties and we recently found out they have boxes and boxes of silver, valuable coins and stamps (that was Dads business). We are talking tens of thousands of dollars probably much more. Meanwhile they behave like they are poverty stricken and look to us to supplement them for groceries, clothing and copays on the multitudes of medications they take. We have all refused to do that anymore so they are using their SS and cashing in silver to cover the basics. They are maxed out on credit cards to the tune of 60 thousand dollars, are behind in taxes and owe business debts. If they would sell just one property it would take them out of debt and give them enough money to live on while financial plans could be made for their future and care. They refuse. Our hands are tied because they are still "competent"

My folks are very paranoid and secretive, they always have been. When the time comes we will be looking to have the court appoint an outside guardian. Given the circumstances none of us feel safe taking on that role. When that time comes they will be forced to liquidate. Sadly they will end up with a lot less than they could have but it should be enough to cover their future medical and living care. Meanwhile we are doing what we can to make sure they are safe. I have to try and be at peace with that.
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irishboy Feb 2015
I agree with the others. I am going to add that I hope you're not got going around telling people that your parents keep a large amount of cash in their home.

You mentioned your son, does he say anything to friends? Have you told him and any other children you have to not broadcast this?

You could be putting your parents at risk. Hopefully you're mentioning on here is the only time you have said this to anyone, and I mean anyone. Including friends and neighbors and other relatives.
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vegsister Feb 2015
Oh goodness, you are describing my dad almost exactly! Dad has hundreds of thousands sitting around in checking accounts and a very generous pension, and still he is extremely cheap and paranoid and is always talking about how worried he is that he has no money left (he's still talking about how much he spent on Christmas presents...which came from thrift stores and Walmart). Fortunately, my sister does have POA and some control over his finances, so we were able to go online and switch direct deposit of his pension into the Trust account over which she has control. I agree, you have to be "sneaky" as there is no reasoning with a person who has reached this state. Other recommendations are also right on... describe what's happening to his PCP, as you have been doing, and review his meds, and drastically reduce the amount you are bringing him each month--if you have a good sense of what he is spending, bring him exactly that amount. He'll probably respond with anxiety and unpleasantness but that's why you want to work with his PCP to see what shifts in his meds can help. Hugs and best of luck to you!
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KayHBransford Feb 2015
I lived through a similiar experience, but both my parents had dementia. The more your push and insist, the deeper Dad's going to dig in. Hopefully the doctor can get him diagnosed (a neuropsych exam is ideal but it's a 2-3 hour battery of tests) or maybe even a cat scan to see if he had a stroke and has vascular dementia. He probably needs to see a neurologist.

Reason doesn't work because he might not recognize his behavoir. A fire could take his money, might he consider a safe that you arrange to have installed and get a lock for? Some of what you may need to do is think around his behavoir.

The first person to diagnose my parent's that knew them and witnessed their denial told me I was going to have to "be sneaky." It felt disrespectful and I resisted for months. However, when they kept driving after their licenses were revoked, we hid the car. When my mom kept losing her purse, I opened up a new checking account that I could put money into and put the new checkbook in her wallet. This is tough, and even with the DPOA, you Dad can always undo what you have done--if he knows about it. I have lots more examples about how I managed through this time with my parents on my blog dealingwithdementia.org

Best of luck. It's tough!
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kukla77 Feb 2015
You mentioned you talked to their attorney...is here a trust in place? Are you the trustee? Mom went throught the same thing as your Dad -accused me of everything...saying rude, nasty things to me...it hurt. Mom had called her attorney one day and rambled on...and on...and the attorney called me (I'm the trustee) and suggested I become her guardian..which means controlling all money aspects...deposits, payments, check writing etc. It cost me $500 but I did it...it wasn't easy explaining it to Mom (her doctor has to sign off also)...but we're now in the 5-6 month and she's seemed to accept things as she realizes she's got problems even though she won't admit it...you need to be pro-active...search Dad's home for the money...he probably forgot where he put it..take it away and stash it somewhere...bank, safe deposit, etc...YOU need to take control...chances are...things will get worse...and you don't want him to get physical or out of control...Good Luck..
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esmallwood Feb 2015
You probaby need to step in n bring someone into the home to protect your mom! Don't be surprise at how much your mom really understansds. As for his money STOP bringing so much money to him or your mom (she probaby doesnt realize her spending)Maybe you can give him a Stack of lower bills (ONES) n then monitor it as best as you can! Maybe this might help. OBIVIOUSLY they have the means to bring in soneine YOU CAN TRUST!!!!!!!!
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Veronica91 Feb 2015
What a very sad and difficult situation. Far far beyond simple suggestions we may make here. is Dad still driving/ heving minor fender bender? how do they get to the casino? Mom is clearly in no state to control Dad if she ever was. Talk to the attorney about taking tighter control of the cash. He is already verbally abusive to you so it is not going to change if you take further control. It is very hurtful to you but try and remember it is the disease not Dad. Two ways this can go. If he hurts mom or anyone else for that matter call 911 and have him taken to the ER as being beyond cotrol and request a psychiatric in patient evaluation and refuse to let him go home, if necessary involve the police. the other way is to go to court and obtain guardianship which will be a lengthy process and expensive and again take legal advice not necessarily from his own attorney. very hard whatever you decide to do but allowing the situation to continue makes you an enabler. Is there alcohol involved too? Is so he probably is a smoker too and this increases the danger of fire in the home. Come back and update us, we all learn from each other. Don't be afraid to visit just to vent it is very therapeutic just to write your thoughts. Blessings to you and your family.
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BarryL Feb 2015
Deeandfam, you have the classic signs of dementia along with the wrong mix of a lot of medications that could be adding to the problem. After several years of dealing with a similar but less severe issue, we went to a psychiatrist to evaluate her medications and help her memory. In this process, he has coordinated with her PCP and removed medications that were creating problems and add/replace them with other Meds that have soothed her parinoia (to a limited degree) and she has become more agreeable.

You cannot reason with your Dad and as stated earlier, your Mom may not be getting the care and support she needs. We have also found an Alzheimer's support who's members have listened and shared their experiences. This has been invaluable for us along with a "Mom" pill we both got to help us deal with a stressful situation.
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jeannegibbs Feb 2015
It does sound like Dad has dementia. I am so glad you talked to his doctor and that the doctor is taking this seriously.

Did you include the fact that "he tends to get physically and verbally mean to my mom" when you talked to the doctor? This adds urgency to improving the situation. Even though your father may not be able to understand/control his inappropriate behavior, your poor mother cannot be left at risk. If the doctor isn't aware of this factor be sure to explain it as soon as possible.

Your mother is a vulnerable adult. It doesn't sound like your father is capable of taking care of her.

Please let us know how this develops. We care!
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