Creation of a trust, can it be a house with an existing mortgage?

well, twright, at least she has it to be able to do it that way, unlike hub's aunt and uncle whose is already run up for other things that they're already paying on such that not sure they'd even be able to do that, why for sure not sure what going to do in their situation

No, no no - don't put her into credit card debt. Get estate planning or eldercare attorney help NOW before you do that again!! It will cost far less than $1500.00 a month at high interest!!

She is self pay that's the problem it cost 1500. 00 more a month then she brings in. This month we put the 1500 on her credit card.

so if she's already past her Medicare 100 days how is she still getting her rehab now?

She is in an assisted living center now for rehab

is she in a nursing home now getting her rehab?

Her income is to high to go one Medicaid her Medicare is past her 100 days and she still needs more rehabilitation so she can go home. So yes she is keeping her house to return to so my question is how will this work with Medicaid? She doesn't make enough to pay for the assisted living so we were looking into Medicaid

The other thing to do is ask about a Miller Trust or the equivalent to let her get Medicaid despite being over income. This gets complex, and you have to think about how many years of care she is likely to need. And yes, you need a really good eldercare attorney or life care planner to properly handle all the complexities of this.

If you sell Mom's house, the proceeds will have to be spent down for her care, but that may be fine; if you do not sell, it can be an exempt asset and won't stop her from getting Medicaid if she intends to return, whether or not that is realistic, but then you are paying for the insurance and upkeep of the house, plus if it goes unoccupied long enough, the insurer may even balk at covering it.

mom has to qualify for Medicaid first, is the problem there

I would get legal advise, because it seems like I recall there being some Medicaid exception for a house being allowed to go to a ADULT DISABLED child. I would explore all loopholes.

Hi, Twright: I can see the frustration you are going through with your disability and your Mom's care while trying to pay bills. You did not mention what age you and your mother are. I will pray for both of you. For example, my mother was 95 last year when she passed, and I am 59. Three years ago when I lost my job, Mom was paying most of our condo's bills until she was moved into assisted living because of her declining health and repeated falls in our condo. Two years ago, Mom went on Medicaid when her own funds ran out. I am still unemployed and pay all of my own condo's bills alone except with some other relatives' financial assistance.

twright, why, with 2 mortgages, are you wanting to keep your mom's house if you're not planning to move her and you - and possibly your husband - into it? but having said that, after talking to our local Council on Aging (which she says we all are, btw) in regards to hubs aunt and uncle - I somewhat agree with Garden Artist - that although I understand the asset issue relating to Medicaid - which you do realize you would still have the 5 yr. lookback period anyway - I still think the greater issue would be the income - looked into it for them with just a Medicaid waiver, which has a greater income limit, especially for 2, and even for both of them, with their combined income being less than your mother's, they don't qualify; the only thing they might qualify for is some food assistance, after her finding out that if you apply after you're over 60 you can deduct medical expenses, which might possibly could be construed to be outside help, although I'm not really sure; we never quite got that far; she was just upset that the food service people don't even tell you that; not sure how she actually found it out. It's possible, if you could figure out a way, that if she could be construed to pay for the addition to your house, since it was for her to live in, it wouldn't be considered as a gift to you, since it was for her benefit and could be used to draw down her assets, if for no other reason, than, like ga said, for when she passes; this lady at the aging place was telling about her personal situation - well, her daughter's, whose dad must have already passed, since, when they did, she was the only blood heir and there was $10,000 in taxes that had to be paid for them afterward; just thankful they had it left to pay it with but was also a big pain to get the right documents from the bank to do it with; attorney had to get involved to get them. But anyway, thus far, for nothing related to Medicaid have we found any provision for deducting medical expenses from the income, at least not for an adult. But they still have them, just not being used for medical but in their case for credit card and it has been suggested that those expenses be cut, as in just not make those payments even though they might end up being considered taxable income, still felt would be less than the payments they're making now but thus far they've refused to consider but they also aren't living with any child either and getting harder for them to live by themselves like assuming got to be with your mother, why she's living with you, right?

Ginach, that's interesting. Thanks for the response. Sounds like your attorney was being very thorough and trying to cover all the bases in terms of the second house.

Thinking it over, I understand now. Generally it would be a breach of the terms of a mortgage to convey property subject to that mortgage, without first acquiring the mortgagee's consent. Some banks are very strict about that and consider it an unlawful and unpermitted transfer, which is generally an event of default.

But I believe that usually those provisions are intended to prevent the mortgagor from conveying the property to another individual, rather than a trust. Still, it's an interesting issue with which I hadn't been familiar before, i.e., in terms of the retitling of property into a trust.

I think you have a very good attorney.

Garden Artist, my husband and I had a new family trust drawn up in 2013. Our attorney advised us to check with the bank that held the mortgage(chase) on a property we own that is not our principal residence on whether the bank would allow that property to be put in the trust. So that is what we did. We own our principal residence outright so all we had to do with that was change the deed at the county clerk's office.

Ginach, when was your trust created? I'm wondering because I've also dealt with Chase on trust issues, since my sister's house was subject to a mortgage. However, our attorney never advised to contact any mortgagee, nor did I until other issues arose during administration. This is interesting and a bit unsettling.

That could really be problematic if a mortgagee had to approve trust language. I can't think of a reason why it would need to or even have the right of that kind of review.

TW, I'm going to address an issue which hasn't been raised before, and I want to emphasize that I'm not being critical, but just realistic.

Your mother's income is substantial; in fact it's more than I ever made when I was working, and I had what I considered well paying jobs.

Someone reviewing her situation and financial condition might wonder why her expenses are so high given that she's living with you, and what could be done to cut the expenses to make an AL facility more affordable. Suggestions might be made that you attempt to cut her expenses and reallocate those freed up funds either for a placement cost or to bring in people to assist in her care.

I think the issue of her income is going to be the deciding factor in even considering applying for Medicaid, but I'm not well versed in this subject.

I would think, though, that you've gone to the expense of adding space for her, so perhaps you could refocus and think how you could maximize that addition, with outside help as needed. Even bringing in outside help wouldn't come close to the huge cost of an AL placement.

Back to the issue of a trust, you probably should explore that issue with an estate planning attorney. With an income of $4k, I imagine that your mother has some assets and it would be wise to explore options of planning for minimal taxation when she passes (not to be maudlin, but just cautionary).

I hope you find some solutions which benefit you and your family and give you comfort in knowing that you're doing the best you can for your mother.

No my husband and I paid for the addition.

In order to put a house with a mortgage in a trust the bank or other entity that holds the mortgage must approve of the language in the trust. I put a property that I still had a mortgage on in a trust and it took several months sending documents back and forth to a Chase Bank office in Cincinnati. This action had nothing to do with Medicaid planning though.

Twright, curious if your Mom paid for the addition on your house being she has a high income, compared to your SS disability payment. If that is a yes, Medicaid might look at that as a "gift".

A Elder Law Attorney is your best bet now, as all of what you have said has become complex.

My mom will continue to live with me I have put on an addition to my house for her to stay in.

are you then planning to move to her house?

My mom is living with me in my house because she can no longer take care of her self. My moms house she still has a mortgage and a second mortgage she is still paying. We had renters but they are 2 months behind in rent and we are evicting them at the end of the month.

My mother still owns her house with a mortgage and life insurance bill car insurance but she doesn't drive I use it for her for dr appt. and she has a credit card she is still using and paying.

Twright, your questions was "Creation of a trust, can it be a house with an existing mortgage?" and the answer is yes.

Whomever inherits the house must realize that he/she will need to continue to pay on that mortgage, the taxes, insurance, etc.

Now, if that mortgage is a Reverse Mortgage, that's a whole different and very complex ballgame.... whomever inherits the house will be required to refinance to pay back the Reverse Mortgage within a certain time frame [30-90 days depending on the loan, along with interest and fees] or the house would need to be sold.

If your mom goes into a nursing home and needs to qualify for Medicaid, as mentioned above, you will need to contact an Elder Law attorney to instruct you both on how that works regarding Medicaid taking the house to help pay for your mom's care, and if you qualify to keep the house being disabled.

Is your Mom's house sitting vacant or are there tenants in the house? Or are you and Mom living in her house? If the house is vacant, that can be costly as house insurance is much higher on a vacant house, lawn must be mowed [if it isn't a condo], electricity still needs to be paid, etc.

she still has her house, right?

I also have been wondering how your mother's expenses can be so high when she's living with you. Are you charging her rent?

Have you investigated hiring outside help to assist your mother?

You really need the advice of an Elder Law/Estate Planning attorney. As SS has made its determination that you are disabled, a 'Special Needs Trust' can be established using part of your mom's assets. It appears that the home is in your name? If not - A SS disability determination also protects the home from a MERP lien should Medicaid be used.

You really need to hook up with experts, TWright. You might start with your local Council on Aging or Senior Services Dept. it might take a few phone calls to end up at the right place, but when you do, you'll get God information right from the horse's mouth. Don't wait. Start exploring tomorrow.

If she's living with you in your home, it's hard to understand how she could have $1600 a month in bills. What kinds of bills are they?

Thanks for you help. If her $4,000 income is used for her care what happens to her bills that need to be paid each month?

Medicaid will ALWAYS (almost) pay after your mom's assets are used up. Your mom needs an elder law attorney to explain how she MAY be able to protect some of her assets. Very important, because it takes time and it takes careful professional planning.

Her $4000 monthly income will be used for her care. Call an attorney and call Medicaid.