How do I deal with Dad's finances when I have tried so hard to make him financially independent?

So right on time he comes to me this AM for more money, looked at his account down to $34.00 So what am I supposed to do? I cant let him go without money, now for the next week he wont go out. I transferred a small amount so he doesn't have charges like he did before. Oh well, I guess I have to go with it. It is not like he blows the money, Oh well I guess I have to, it is easier than getting all wound up. Sometimes he pays it back most times not. I have to be in his shoes for a little while to understand. It is difficult though, most mornings he sleeps in till 10 or 11. This week I have company, he was up at 7:30 every morning, comes down sits at the table (I was making breakfast for my guests). The guests left so I am sure he will be back to sleep to 10 then. Makes himself out to be "johnny can I help?" when guests are around like he does it all the time..... Only when we have company does he offer to help or say something was good. Frustrating.

I felt bad for a minute when I raised my voice and it was in front of friends, then he went and sulked in his room. It is hard, after 2 years we are still all trying to find our center. I got out for a few days with some friends and it felt great. Just what I needed, some golf and guy time. Was great to be away from the office and the stress. It is just hard when he comes in the middle of conversations and turns them to himself. My friend asked me if I wanted something this AM and he answered, that happens a lot. I noticed he is not going out at all this week since he is down to a small amount in his account, he is waiting for his SSI. The other day he told my wife that "I don't have a reason to go to the store except to buy what I need".... So I guess all the food source it up to me. That is the part I don't get, There is no give, just take...... I am really not expecting him to buy all the groceries but it would be nice once in a while to pick something up other than fruit and the milk he drinks...
Normally he sleeps to 10 some days 11 AM but this week up at 8:30 because we have company, Mr. Social. Figures the bed and breakfast would have breakfast ready this AM. Sorry, after day two guests are on their own for breakfast...
At 3:30 this AM I was trying to meditate to get back to sleep, no avail, up at 4:30 to make coffee and start work to get things done......

Yeah, that is my big problem the NO word but I will go to the end of the earth for my kids any day. Glad to help them out with boundaries!

Tg, please remember that you are allowed to say "no". To Dad, to your kids, to your neighbors, to ANYONE.

Good for you for yelling him off! Too often (at least here in your posts) you seem more frustrated at your lack of tolerance instead of being hopping mad at your father and extended family's attitude.
As for the kids moving in ..Yikes! I hope you have a very large house?

I am not sure that is it my frustration to to accept that I owe nothing, it is more of reality. It was reality that my dad didn't have enough money to live on his own nor take care of himself. It was reality that my siblings if pressed would have helped a bit but are fine with me taking on the bulk of the care. It was reality that my dad while a generous man is in someways self centered. I am not a neophyte in this situation it was just reality that I have voluntarily put myself into this situation. The frustration is that my father has put himself in this situation without preparing for the future and allowing others to manage it for him. It is my frustration that he does at times thank us for our help but at a moments notice will tell everyone that I don't let him do anything and that I gave away all his tools and wont let him climb a ladder (the words he used in-front of my friends this week). I finally had to let off some steam and raise my voice that was not the truth and stop telling people that. I know his life is upside down but yet so is mine. It is just frustrating when he tells people the things he wants them to hear. Apparently he has plans to visit home next month (has not told me yet). I guess I will let him do what ever and hope it works for the best. Later this month my child and spouse are moving in until they find a place to live..... this should be fun..... I am excited that they are moving back home for work, it will be interesting on how it all goes....... Yes, I did put a 30 day limit on it.

I want to clarify my post, the frustration comes from TG refusing to accept that he owes nothing and that he really does deserve to be praised for his efforts, despite what his relatives and inner conscience try to have him believe. He has done more than enough to earn their respect, the reality seems to be that dad is a perpetual child who will never change and the sibs will probably never give him his due either. So please TG, stop tying yourself in knots trying to please them, you are an amazing son!!

Well said, ChurchMouse.

To quote your thoughtful, insightful and compassionate query:

"Why do we do these things at uncounted cost to ourselves?" I would add because we're family, because we care, and perhaps because it's human nature to extend ourselves as much as we can to our family (and friends) in their time of need.

And we face dilemmas because sometimes we're pushed to levels and decision making we never dreamed of. We're going where we've never been before, where standards and dicta are often nebulous. In some ways we're pathsetters for our family, and perhaps for others who will follow in similar patterns with their own parents.

I'm reminded of an incident I read about in one of the Chicken Soup books. A mother cat repeatedly re-entered an area on fire to rescue her kittens, one by one. She saved them, at great cost to herself.

These parental and filial obligations we feel can't be quantified.

I expect TG feels much the same, CW - and if anything finds it a heck of a lot more frustrating than you do!

Why do we do these things at uncounted cost to ourselves? Because it's our mother/father, because the poor old gal/boy needs a hand, because we don't want to feel bad about it, because it's the right thing to do, because after all it's not so much to ask is it...

And then, when it does feel like too much to ask, and you vent, you really do feel bad about giving someone, who after all is said and done *is* dependent on your goodwill, a hard time. And yes, as you say, back around we go...

Part of my frustration with TG's posts is his inability to come to grips with why he is doing this... either he is doing it freely as a generous gift with no expectation of repayment or he is doing it to repay the perceived debt owed to his father, I have a feeling that if there was a balance sheet made up the "gift" of a truck has been repaid many times over. Any sense of familial obligation is apparently not shared by the rest of the family, in fact extended family and even TG's dad himself see no reason to thank or even acknowledge the tremendous gift he is giving of his time and money, which only naturally leads to resentment, which causes TG to feel guilty because he feels he "owes" his father, and back around the circle we go.

For you to give to your Dad, I mean! Not for you :P

Have you heard of Alvin Hall in America? I mean, I know he is American, but I'm not sure he's as well known in the US as he is over here in the UK. He had a programme on the BBC called 'Your Money Or Your Life' and did sort-of makeovers for people who'd got themselves into difficulties.

Anyway. He's published several practical books, TG, if they might be of interest?

What I did with my mom was take her SS check and list her few expenses. then there was a small dollar amount for extras - and let her know if she went over - no $$ from me, she would just have to deal with it. She did NOT like it. One month she spent and had no money for rent and for the first time I said "NO" - in spite of her crying that she would be kicked out of her apartment, lose her car, etc. I kept saying "NO".

It got especially ugly because my mom went to my sister (working part time, husband lost his job in the 2008 crisis) and my sister gave her money - then they came to our house to yell at us because they had to help her when they them selves had a financial bind. I still said "NO" and then the next month also, and the month after that. Finally my sister said "NO"

It wasn't until my mom got into difficulties with her senior rental and both sis and I said we were not going to take her in, that she finally got serious about her money and taking care of it.

She still is angry "I worked hard all my life and can't have an XXXX - whatever the luxury of the day is". it sounds mean - but I just don't care. No one owes her luxuries.

I guess I have a huge chip on my shoulder because my husbands brother constantly needs money to pay his mortgage, or new tires, or insurance & my husband's mom and dad think that since he and I have "good jobs" we should be happy to "loan" him money - like we'd ever see it again. We respond - when he pays back the $1000 we loaned him in 1995, we'll see.

Use tough love otherwise you will eventually when you get mad enough, but by then a ton of expectations have been set because you always give money

Tgengine, I am the one who suggested putting dad's money in a bowl or jar and having him keep a list on a chalkboard of the reason and the amount he takes any of the money for, hopefully showing him where he is overspending. When the money is gone, it is gone; and, dad stays home and eats with the family. I also said I give advice better than I practiced it with my mom.

I don't know where I saw it here, but there was a guy who went to help his parents out on a temporary basis. He was doing well and had a full-time job. Eventually, taking care of them took up so much of his time that he quit his job and lived with them. He said dad's truck was polished and had an oil change more often than recommended, but his was falling apart. You get the idea. Any time he told his parents that he was spending from his retirement savings to live there and to help them when he knew they had money, they called him names and accused him of being there for their money. I think he had done this for 6 or more years. The question he asked was, "Has anyone just picked up and gone?" He foresaw what his health and financial condition would be as he aged and he was at the end of his rope. I throw this out just to let you know that some LOs will take as long as you give without a thought of what it is doing to you and your future. I wish you well with dad, but old habits are hard to break.

All the answers have been helpful. I gave him a credit card a few years ago when he got into financial trouble with his business. When he came to live with me I took it back, I did not need him running up credit on meals. I helped him with a few car repairs. but other than that he has no credit card which is good, he'd use it to the max. Not sure how he feels about my work since I work at home in comfortable clothes and I work many evenings traveling to see clients. So no one thinks I work hard. I met my sales goals for the year in the first six months this year. I guess that is not hard work. I tried to explain that to him at lunch yesterday but it goes right over his head. I talked to my brother yesterday first time in a year and he is the same way as my father. Must be the DNA.....

it's a slippery slope, since he gave me his work truck (I had 2) and he encouraged me to trade it in on a new one I feel beholding. So I guess I cannot be too tough on him but in the other sense he does not pay for housing, utilities, food, cable, satellite radio etc.... Kind of a trade off. I keep an eye on the expenses but he is again getting down there on his balance. My wife works all year teaching and over the summer is tutoring so we can save for a vacation. I thought it funny, I took him out for my birthday lunch, not even a flinch for paying for lunch..... I did not expect him and it was my honor to buy lunch as it was the intention but I just thought it funny. He has become very comfortable in letting others provide for him. He has no rational for spending unless it is important to him. I guess since he never lived on a budget he never knew. Mom always did the finance. I am trying to let him learn. I have to live on what I make, no one gives me a pay check I have to earn all my money and budget it for the year.

I am in agreement with Kimber166! You CANNOT continue to be your dad's bank, when he overspends! I am about to post something myself about moochers.

Kimber, I'm assuming you haven't been following Tgengine's posts since the time before his father came to live with him. If you had, you might not have posted as strongly as you did.

Tgengine has been increasingly struggling with balancing a variety of care issues while also attempting to live his and his wife's own life, with no apparent help from family and under situations that become more complicated as his father's behavior adapts to the changes in his life as well.

He's at a juncture which many of us face, trying to find a tolerable medium, trying to allow his father to maintain a sense of self respect, trying to be fair in all aspects.

Like many other caregivers, he's struggling to find workable and balanced solutions. "Just say no" doesn't work in all situations.

For Pete's sake - your dad is an adult & if he hasn't been declared incompetent - he can choose to be wise or foolish. But he doesn't get to decide for YOU - just say "no!". When he runs out of money - he is done for the month. Tough love. Our parents bad choices don't have to be ours - get a backbone or this is going to go one for years and only get worse. My mom cried bloody murder when I said "no" to the little bits here and there because she can't deny herself luxuries. Guess what? She didn't die, become homeless, etc. She just got angry. CUT HIM OFF ALREADY.

I'm coming across as harsh - it boils my blood that so-called adults feel no issue mooching off their grown children who are working hard to provide for a family, to save for that family's future and children's education, just because they want their luxuries.

NO, no, NOOOOO!!!!

I am keeping an eye on his finances, he is not aware that I am or maybe he is. I have access to his finances through our bank (he is attached since I am a signer). The lunches he puts on the card I can see but he does a few cash..... It is just 2 weeks until he gets a SSI check, I guess I will have to see when he runs out between now and then.....

Hi Inginegiene. I had a very long, detailed response started to you based on my experience with my mom. In the middle of it, though, I thought it boils down to having to have tough, tough love. With his history with money and his age, he isn't going to change now. Since he is living with you, this is what I would do. Put a dry erase board or calendar somewhere in a shared location. At the beginning of each month, put his money in a bowl or jar near the board or calendar. Each time he takes money out, he makes a list of what he spent it on and how much it cost. And, when he is out of money for the month, he stays home. A month like that and I'll bet he learns to spread his money over the whole month. At the end of the month, sit down with him and group what he spent his money on: eating out; oysters; etc. Hopefully he can see where he is spending too much of his money and will learn where to cut back. Do you think that might work? Do you have enough tough love to do it?

I confess I had to just take my mom's money over. I gave the activity director at the ALF enough money for her to eat out, shop, or do whatever she wanted. So, she didn't miss out on anything, but she would have spent $300 at Walmart on clothes that wouldn't fit in her closet if she had the money! She was a true shopoholoic. My cousin, who has passed away now, was a financial advisor. He was always one of my parents' favorite nephews and the closest I will ever come to having a brother. Before I took over mom's money, I showed him how much I was supplementing her every month. He was amazed and very realisticly told me I wouldn't have anything except my pension to retire on if I continued. (I refused to take hubby's and my money to supplement mom.) We decided to take mom to his office, in a professional setting with him dressed in a beautiful suit and tie, to maybe get through to her what she was doing to me. She was quite impressed with the downtown area and his office, etc. We chatted about family for a bit, then he said he understood we wanted him to run some numbers for us. She gave me one of those looks! So, on one side of a paper, he listed her income. On the other side, he listed the bills I was paying for her, the vet bills for the dog, extras like internet and cable, manis and pedis, etc. He asked me were all of those things, like manis and pedis, necessary. LOL I said no, but mom enjoyed going with me and getting her acrylic nails usually with the ring fingers decorated done. I think he was truly surprised by that. He told mom he knew she loved me, and she nodded yes, and that she wanted me to have enough money to live on when I fully retired. (I was working part time then.) She said yes. He handed her the paper and showed her how much more money than her income I was paying for her to live the way she was. He told her if she didn't have me to help her, she would be bankrupt. Every now and then, he and I made eye contact as if we thought that maybe we were getting her to understand. When we finished, he walked us out and hugged us. As we were walking toward the car, I will never forget what mom said! She said, "He's full of sh - - !" When he called me later, hoping he had really done a good job, I didn't have the nerve to tell him mom's opinion of him. I just said, I don't think her attitude toward money will ever change, and it didn't. So, thank God I had a good paying part-time job and thank God that my knees held out as long as they did.

When mom moved to the next level because she needed more care with bathing and dressing, I was trying to cut down my own budget. So, even though it meant missing out on our manis and pedis and lunch out, I decided to cut the price in half and just get mine done when I could. I prepaid for her to have her hair to be done and a regular mani (they didn't do acrylics there LOL) and pedi once a week at the ALF. That sounds like a lot, but it was A LOT less expensive than having them done at a salon. When I told her I was cutting back on money and I was paying for her to get her nails done at the ALF, it was like taking candy from a baby. I remember crying on the way home. My knees had already started giving me problems, though, and I didn't know how much longer I was going to be able to work. I think it made mom feel a little bit better when I showed up one day and had regular nails, too!

Good luck with your dad. I know how it is, and it is difficult. I think it might be easier to have tough love with your dad living with you, though. After all, he has all he really needs right there. I'll be thinking of you. Let me know when you start whatever you do and how it works!

I still don't think any of it will help; he's only going to be resentful, if he even allows it anyway, which I don't think he will; he's just going to have to come to it on his own; do agree, hope frugal wife isn't bankrolling this, at least not without her knowledge; if she is, then guess that's her business, too, but what's her reasoning for it?

This is going to be tough, but you can do it... as others have said, you're not being harsh and you've sort of been a soft touch until now. :) I heartily endorse the ideas of weekly budget vs. monthly, and getting him set up in some type of work schedule... work/engagement is always a way to curb spending, for any of us! Plus it will give him another, productive outlet vs. just socializing. You must control the ATM account so when money's gone it's gone. Good luck.

I am afraid not much of what you say will get through to him. Does he have a credit card. Maybe one with a low credit limit so he could pay for his lunches that I imagine are very important to him. If you can, try to manage his cash also and pay his bills online for him. If he will let you. This is a situation that will only get worse unless someone takes control. I'm sorry about your Dad.

I don't think any of that's going to help; my hub's like that and it wasn't until he couldn't pay his bills or get any more money that he looked for a job and got one; well, a 2nd job, he has a fairly good 1st one, though actually in a lot of ways nothing like most of the people he's around, which maybe is where the problem is, though not sure it really is/was - anyway....

Well you've said this is nothing new. So you really can't blame it on age or dementia. You'll probably not want this suggestion but since he is able to drive etc maybe he could work for you half a day each week? Who cleans your house, washes your car? Cleans the bathrooms or vacumns? Mows the lawn? You get the idea. Look around and find something that he is able to do that he could get paid for. I sure hope your frugal wife isn't doing everything for both of you and he's living large. If he has an aversion to work, start clipping out help wanted ads and leave them where he will see them. Another idea is to tell him you will pay him to save. For every say $10 he saves each pay period you will match it. Catch is he can't spend it for a year. Maybe plan a vacation with him when he gets to a certain amount. Or a trip for an oyster dinner your treat. Think of a way for him to practice delaying gratification.it sounds like he's running with a crowd that's a little better off than he is. Whatever you decide, be sure and tell him the new rules at the beginning of the month rather than when he asks for a loan. I also think Blannie's idea of diving up his excess funds by the week. Let us know how you handle it. Happy Fathers Day to you and your dad.

You are going to have to take over his finances as he is no longer able to handle them.

Thats a good point is he treating? I was lucky, my Mom knew she was having problems and let me take over. First, I would take the ATM card away and credit cards. I assume u have sat him down and explained you can't spend more than u have coming in. Maybe you r going to have to let him sink. By loaning and getting repaid he is always going to be short. Tell him no more loans. Explain again he can't spend like he is rich, he isn't. When he has no money at the end of the month, oh well,will have to do without. This is part of retirement. They become like children. Its hard but that is how they need to be treated with respect. Explain, if he doesn't pay his car insurance than he can't drive. Then u will need to take the keys and the car away. Pretend he is ur tenager.😃

Have you looked at the restaurant bills? Is your dad being taken advantage of? Is he frequently treating all these "friends" to lunch?

omg! just tell him that if he comes up short at the end of the month because he is going out to lunch so much that YOU WILL NOT BE LENDING HIM MONEY! do that a few times and see what happens.