If my mom gives each of her 3 children $13,000 and ends up needing nursing home care within 5 years and two of the children have the money but the third doesn't, can the state go after the other two?
I need help. Two children have the money to return to the state but the third does not, can the state go after the other two to make up the difference? Thank you so much.
K. Gabriel Heiser 421 HELPFUL ANSWERS Attorney, author, Medicaid asset protection planning Following 7 years ago There are two rules that affect the answer to your situation: First, if you care for your mother for the two years prior to her entering a nursing home such that your care enables her to delay going into a nursing home, then she can transfer her joint interest to you (by deed) after she is in the nursing home without penalty. That, of course, would protect it forever from any Medicaid claims by the state for your mother's care.
Secondly, remember that during your mother's life her primary residence will be exempt for Medicaid eligibility purposes but the state could possibly come after her joint interest upon her death, up to the amount of care it provided for her. However, many states will not go after a joint interest that passes by "right of survivorship" to you (this would be spelled out in the deed). If you live in one of these states--and the deed is worded correctly--then the house will be protected following your mother's death, even if still partially in her name.
The home would be child caregiver's if he provided medically necessary care for a period of two years, in some states. But that did especially not mean that Medicaid will not file liens on the house to be recovered when bro is no longer there. Those rules may also be effected if bro owns his own home.
Like others have said you NEED an elder law attorney on mom's state to help you understand state specific regulations.
If bro is medically necessary caregiver, also talk to attorney about a care agreement to pay him. If that payment is planned to be the house, it won't really be his if mom needs Medicaid at any point in this journey. It would belong to Medicaid by virtue of liens through the MERP program
Not a do it yourself project. Get an elder law attorney, NAELA certified.
And that two year rule only applies if she is admitted to a nursing home assisted living or memory care do not qualify at least in my state.
As we've advised, you need a certified Eldercare attorney who understands Medicaid law. The accountant has skimmed the page; you want someone who has actually read the material and mastered it.
We intend to use her assets for her care to keep her in her home for as long as possible. Her income since my Dad passed is less than 22,000 a year and my brother lives in the home with her. Our accountant told us that if we could prove we kept mom out of convalescent care for 5 years they could not touch her home. Just need to know what is required for that as proof.
I agree with Jeanne. If you are mom's conservator, it is imperative that you get a qualified, NAELA attorney to give advice on the management of mom's assets NOW!
Medicaid is a program that pays the medical costs of folks who are poor. If mom spends her money, both assets and income, on her own care until she is under 2K in assets and less than 2k per month in income, Medicaid comes into play. Not when she still has the means to pay for care.
My mom's NH costs were 12K per month, private pay. She was there for nearly 4 years. Prior to that she was in an Independent Living facility at 5k per month for about 18 months.
If your mother has enough money to pay for her own care, then there won't be any penalty period involved because the application won't get that far. She will be way above the maximum asset level. If she tries to get below that maxium by giving her money away (to children or anyone else), she won't be eligible for Medicaid assistance until a penalty period is up.
The best way to approach this is to consult an attorney who specializes in Elder Law.
If mom “has a sizable estate”,she won’t be eligible for Medicaid. Medicaid is a verifiable “at need” program & really they will basically have to be impoverished to ever qualify. Under 2k in nonexempt assets and within whatever your state has set for monthly income (most under $2100). Homestead is exempt asset if under Medicaid value limits but she will have no-nada-none $ to ever pay on any property costs.
If mom does have a sizable estate, mom needs to pay for an NAELA level elder law atty to review her situation. & asap.
Mom, will the sibling who needs help be able to repay the funds, i.e., can this be a loan (with Promissory Note prepared by an attorney) that can be repaid?
ok, so penalty period is based upon how much money is given and has to equal days in convalescence. My mom has a sizeable estate, but one of my siblings is in bad financial shape and needs $8,000 to get on her feet. Mom is insistent on giving it to her. My brother and I don't need that money now so we are in a pickle. Mom says she will give each of us $8,000 but that will add to the time mom will have to stay in the home by $24,000 once she has exhausted her assets. As her poa this will fall on myself and my brother as my sister will NOT have any money to assist. Is this correct?
Date of Medicaid application starts the 5 year look-back and penalty placement.
In the past, years ago, transfers could be placed by date of gift if a state wanted to do that approach. When Bush era DRA (deficit reduction act of 2005) done it uniformed Medicaid rules for states on requirements for estate recovery, penalties, etc. So now TP all get set from date of application.
does the penalty period begin when the gift is given? 5 years from that date they will not cover her no matter what? I am her conservator of finances and poa. Also, how do you get the penalty period over, pay the money to Medicaid? confused again.
Mom can’t apply for Medicaid till she’s impoverished, which for LTC NH means a max of 2k in assets. She can’t “cover the loss”.
My understanding of transfer penalty is that once placed is done by period of time based on $ amount. It’s a math problem. Your state has a figure that is the Medicaid day rate for room & board. Like for my mom when she entered a NH & onto Medicaid was about $145 a day, which is low R&B. Average R&B is around $175 a day. So 13k at $175 day means basically 75 days / 2 1/2 months of medicaid ineligibility in which moms stay at the NH will have to be private pay.
Mymomis83, cwillie is right. Medicaid is not a debt collector. They enforce their own well-published rules. The penalty for having given significant amounts of money away within 5 years before applying is ineligibility for a period based on how much money is involved.
So, the applicant needs care and has pretty well run out of money herself. How is she going to get that care? Medicaid doesn't care. The children can split up the cost of care during the penalty period equally. They can split the cost unequally, according to their resources. One child can cover the costs alone. One child can care for Mom in their home throughout the penalty period. An old sweetheart can come forward and take her in or pay her way. Medicaid does not declare how the care she needs must be paid for -- just that they won't pay for it, for the penalty period.
Whomever is moms dpoa is going to be stuck dealing with this. Mom is the one who has the gifting or transfer penalty placed on her. She gave the $; it falls to her responsibility. Not the kids. Which means usually that moms dpoa ends up dealing with either private paying the NH to get beyond the penalty period OR they move mom back home OR into their home or into the home of the giftee till beyond the transfer penalty period.
I’ve been on this site for a while and stuff like this happens often enough. Often scenario is grannie paying for grandkids college or wedding. Or $ given to worthless usually drug dependent kid. The $ was a true gift and not done by fraud or coercion. There’s probably no real recourse; their not gonna pay the $. The NH bill is not their problem. It’s the dpoa’s problem.
So choices are stark as the transfer penalty is set. If it’s just 13k, perhaps you get them to pay or get family to all contribute to get penalty period over. 13k is maybe just a couple of months of private pay. I’m not trying to sound all snippy but most transfer penalties are that mom gifted their 200k/ 300k home. That’s serious panic for the dpoa. 13k...try / guiltify to get giftee to pay. Good luck with your family.
can we use her money for that? she would be able to cover the loss. so they would make her wait for the 5 years from the gifting? or do they just want that money to go back to her - very confusing
It's not so much that they go after anyone to repay the money, it's more that they will not pay her nursing home bills until the penalty period is over, and the family will have to come up with a plan to make up the shortfall.
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K. Gabriel Heiser 421 HELPFUL ANSWERS
Attorney, author, Medicaid asset protection planning
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7 years ago
There are two rules that affect the answer to your situation: First, if you care for your mother for the two years prior to her entering a nursing home such that your care enables her to delay going into a nursing home, then she can transfer her joint interest to you (by deed) after she is in the nursing home without penalty. That, of course, would protect it forever from any Medicaid claims by the state for your mother's care.
Secondly, remember that during your mother's life her primary residence will be exempt for Medicaid eligibility purposes but the state could possibly come after her joint interest upon her death, up to the amount of care it provided for her. However, many states will not go after a joint interest that passes by "right of survivorship" to you (this would be spelled out in the deed). If you live in one of these states--and the deed is worded correctly--then the house will be protected following your mother's death, even if still partially in her name.
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Like others have said you NEED an elder law attorney on mom's state to help you understand state specific regulations.
If bro is medically necessary caregiver, also talk to attorney about a care agreement to pay him. If that payment is planned to be the house, it won't really be his if mom needs Medicaid at any point in this journey. It would belong to Medicaid by virtue of liens through the MERP program
Not a do it yourself project. Get an elder law attorney, NAELA certified.
And that two year rule only applies if she is admitted to a nursing home assisted living or memory care do not qualify at least in my state.
Medicaid is a program that pays the medical costs of folks who are poor. If mom spends her money, both assets and income, on her own care until she is under 2K in assets and less than 2k per month in income, Medicaid comes into play. Not when she still has the means to pay for care.
My mom's NH costs were 12K per month, private pay. She was there for nearly 4 years. Prior to that she was in an Independent Living facility at 5k per month for about 18 months.
The best way to approach this is to consult an attorney who specializes in Elder Law.
Medicaid is a verifiable “at need” program & really they will basically have to be impoverished to ever qualify. Under 2k in nonexempt assets and within whatever your state has set for monthly income (most under $2100). Homestead is exempt asset if under Medicaid value limits but she will have no-nada-none $ to ever pay on any property costs.
If mom does have a sizable estate, mom needs to pay for an NAELA level elder law atty to review her situation. & asap.
In the past, years ago, transfers could be placed by date of gift if a state wanted to do that approach. When Bush era DRA (deficit reduction act of 2005) done it uniformed Medicaid rules for states on requirements for estate recovery, penalties, etc. So now TP all get set from date of application.
My understanding of transfer penalty is that once placed is done by period of time based on $ amount. It’s a math problem. Your state has a figure that is the Medicaid day rate for room & board. Like for my mom when she entered a NH & onto Medicaid was about $145 a day, which is low R&B. Average R&B is around $175 a day. So 13k at $175 day means basically 75 days / 2 1/2 months of medicaid ineligibility in which moms stay at the NH will have to be private pay.
So, the applicant needs care and has pretty well run out of money herself. How is she going to get that care? Medicaid doesn't care. The children can split up the cost of care during the penalty period equally. They can split the cost unequally, according to their resources. One child can cover the costs alone. One child can care for Mom in their home throughout the penalty period. An old sweetheart can come forward and take her in or pay her way. Medicaid does not declare how the care she needs must be paid for -- just that they won't pay for it, for the penalty period.
Mom is the one who has the gifting or transfer penalty placed on her. She gave the $; it falls to her responsibility. Not the kids. Which means usually that moms dpoa ends up dealing with either private paying the NH to get beyond the penalty period OR they move mom back home OR into their home or into the home of the giftee till beyond the transfer penalty period.
I’ve been on this site for a while and stuff like this happens often enough. Often scenario is grannie paying for grandkids college or wedding. Or $ given to worthless usually drug dependent kid. The $ was a true gift and not done by fraud or coercion. There’s probably no real recourse; their not gonna pay the $. The NH bill is not their problem. It’s the dpoa’s problem.
So choices are stark as the transfer penalty is set. If it’s just 13k, perhaps you get them to pay or get family to all contribute to get penalty period over. 13k is maybe just a couple of months of private pay. I’m not trying to sound all snippy but most transfer penalties are that mom gifted their 200k/ 300k home. That’s serious panic for the dpoa. 13k...try / guiltify to get giftee to pay. Good luck with your family.