Mother made a gift to grandchild. Is there any way to rectify that during the Medicaid look back period?
My mother gave her granddaughter property assets worth about $250,000 in Feb. of 2018. She has had a stroke since and needs Medicaid. She is 90yrs. old.
Is there anyway to avoid the 5yr. look back period?
Salutem - there was a dramarama much like yours on AC a few years back. Niece got gran to give $ regular, co-sign student loans and helocs on grans fully paid off home. Dutiful daughter was dpoa and mom seemed totally fine, paid bills, went out, yadyada. Mom fell with the usual hospital to rehab to NH to stay scenario. That’s when daughter found out as Gran had plenty income to manage monthly payments so not on anyone’s radar till after the fall. Gran refused to file charges ...... so police of no help. Daughter got APS involved and APS got AGs office involved for fraud & exploitation of vulnerable adult; state filed charges. By having charges filed, it lifted the transfer penalty. 250k is pretty huge transfer penalty, if neither your sibling or niece will discuss this at all either you’ll have to private pay yourself, or let mom become ward of the state and whatever happens happens even if you are found derelict of Dpoa fiduciary duty, or you get with an atty that does speciality elder law criminal work ahead of needing Medicaid. I vote you get with an atty, a good legal letter may scare them plus I bet there’s tax stuff that wasn’t dealt with to also scare them into doing a QCD to give back the House. Something like atty sends W-9 to them as grannie is going to do amended taxes for a few years & file any $ paid to them as income. You need to do something or you’ll be frozen with stress.
Please look through moms records before house transfer, there could be other questionable loans or gifts done. The house transfer wasn’t a spur of the moment idea, it was planned. Sadly I bet there’s others. The co-sign for private student loan was easy to do a few years back, the paperwork very deceptive, maybe look for something along those lines.
Nope. Grandchild should transfer the house back. Or pay her for it. She will be penalized by Medicaid for $250,000.00 where she will have to self pay until 250k is paid for her care. Huge mistake.
I’m assuming your the DPOA and that Golden Child is your daughter & she will be cooperative in all this. The easiest would be for GC to sign the property back to grannie and hope / pray Medicaid considers it acceptable. Will she do this?
RocketjCat is spot on that it’s a math problem. It’s basically a division problem with the 250k property value (usually tax assessor value) as the dividend (top) and your states Medicaid fixed daily payment to a NH for room & board as the divisor (bottom) and the quotient is by # of days of ineligibility. It is NOT a dollar amount penalty but by days. RocketjCats state, NY, pays way way WAY above average at $294 a day R&B. Average is abt $170 a day. And that is 1,470 days or 4 years of ineligibility. Yes, FOUR years of ineligibility although she is now impoverished and needing a NH so qualifies for Medicaid. But has a transfer penalty of 1,470 days of ineligibility.
If your mom has already entered a NH and has applied for Medicaid, on Monday morning my suggestion is for you to find a elder law atty who does transfer penalty negotiations and get an appointment ASAP. It’s not a DIY and it’s too too much $ to let things meander on.
Realize once penalty placed, NH is notified & every day mom is in the NH, it’s another day added to her since day 1 private pay rate daily bill. NH fully expects to be paid & more than her monthly income copay she’s required to pay once she submitted a Medicaid application. What can happen is NH will send DPOA a “30 Day Letter” requiring payment in full. Letter will be cc’d to the state, APS and a probono type of legal clinic. If they kinda like your elder, & she’s ok on her copay, then 2nd letter sent another month later. If Dpoa flat ignores letters, NH can & will contact APS to get an emergency ward of the state placement on your mom. Judge places elder as state ward with a temporary guardian named from a list of persons already vetted by the court for guardian or conservator. Sometimes the NH will ask to be named. Either way this is serious stuff. They are now in charge and can move elder to another facility and attach any income or assets. Family does not need to be notified. Guardian can request APS investigation. Stuff like this snowballs.... like charged with exploitation of a vulnerable adult, IRS contacted as to if taxes paid. Serious stuff.
I’ve been on this site for well over 5 years and based on others postings the choices in this situation are stark: - recipient does a Quit Claim Deed of the property back to the elder; - or elder moves out of NH asap and lives with family and family manages caregiving as best as possible till beyond the 5 yr lookback. - old NH bill is still due and she’s likely toast on getting into another NH as Medicaid Pending even after lookback as it’s in her LTC Medicaid file. Plus it will be sent to collections. -or someone gets charged with exploitation or grand theft and arrested with the police report filed with the Medicaid appeal to become eligible.
If a medicaid application has NOT been filed, she really needs to be private pay till you as dpoa can discuss with an atty how to best deal with this before ever applying for Medicaid. Again this can snowball to get super serious, please find an atty asap. Not a DIY.
No. No way to get around this unless granddaughter returns the assets as this was clearly a “gift”. As stated above there will be a penalty period whereby the person will be self pay.
There’s some sort of calculation which determines how long grandma (or family or whoever benefited from the gift?) would have to self pay before Medicaid could kick in. Where I live in upstate NY, the NH average is $294/day. So I think that would mean it would take 28 months of self pay. I hope others will have more encouraging info for you.
Have you asked granddaughter to give back the assets grandma gave to her? With that kind of money, grandma could then for her care for some time. It is really not fair to ask taxpayers to pay for grandma's care. in these circumstances.
at this point it is very complicated; it's very easy to give something away, very hard to get it back. that's just my experience. thanks for your thoughtful reply
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Please look through moms records before house transfer, there could be other questionable loans or gifts done. The house transfer wasn’t a spur of the moment idea, it was planned. Sadly I bet there’s others. The co-sign for private student loan was easy to do a few years back, the paperwork very deceptive, maybe look for something along those lines.
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I’m assuming your the DPOA and that Golden Child is your daughter & she will be cooperative in all this. The easiest would be for GC to sign the property back to grannie and hope / pray Medicaid considers it acceptable. Will she do this?
RocketjCat is spot on that it’s a math problem.
It’s basically a division problem with the 250k property value (usually tax assessor value) as the dividend (top) and your states Medicaid fixed daily payment to a NH for room & board as the divisor (bottom) and the quotient is by # of days of ineligibility. It is NOT a dollar amount penalty but by days. RocketjCats state, NY, pays way way WAY above average at $294 a day R&B. Average is abt $170 a day. And that is 1,470 days or 4 years of ineligibility. Yes, FOUR years of ineligibility although she is now impoverished and needing a NH so qualifies for Medicaid. But has a transfer penalty of 1,470 days of ineligibility.
If your mom has already entered a NH and has applied for Medicaid, on Monday morning my suggestion is for you to find a elder law atty who does transfer penalty negotiations and get an appointment ASAP. It’s not a DIY and it’s too too much $ to let things meander on.
Realize once penalty placed, NH is notified & every day mom is in the NH, it’s another day added to her since day 1 private pay rate daily bill. NH fully expects to be paid & more than her monthly income copay she’s required to pay once she submitted a Medicaid application. What can happen is NH will send DPOA a “30 Day Letter” requiring payment in full. Letter will be cc’d to the state, APS and a probono type of legal clinic. If they kinda like your elder, & she’s ok on her copay, then 2nd letter sent another month later. If Dpoa flat ignores letters, NH can & will contact APS to get an emergency ward of the state placement on your mom. Judge places elder as state ward with a temporary guardian named from a list of persons already vetted by the court for guardian or conservator. Sometimes the NH will ask to be named. Either way this is serious stuff. They are now in charge and can move elder to another facility and attach any income or assets. Family does not need to be notified. Guardian can request APS investigation. Stuff like this snowballs.... like charged with exploitation of a vulnerable adult, IRS contacted as to if taxes paid. Serious stuff.
I’ve been on this site for well over 5 years and based on others postings the choices in this situation are stark:
- recipient does a Quit Claim Deed of the property back to the elder;
- or elder moves out of NH asap and lives with family and family manages caregiving as best as possible till beyond the 5 yr lookback.
- old NH bill is still due and she’s likely toast on getting into another NH as Medicaid Pending even after lookback as it’s in her LTC Medicaid file. Plus it will be sent to collections.
-or someone gets charged with exploitation or grand theft and arrested with the police report filed with the Medicaid appeal to become eligible.
If a medicaid application has NOT been filed, she really needs to be
private pay till you as dpoa can discuss with an atty how to best deal with this before ever applying for Medicaid. Again this can snowball to get super serious, please find an atty asap. Not a DIY.