Is it elder abuse to NOT provide the elder with a cellphone?

I will get him a phone, one way, or another, soon, because he finally agreed he wants to move out, and I will be helping him look.

Ok. Still not sure about your specific situation. Forgive me if I've misread your posts. But still a little confused about what's going on with you. And your caregiving situation.

And I do care for him. As human, a person. Rather than my father. I am helping trying to help him, just not in his way. He told me he doesn't want to live in a care home. Fine. I am gonna try to help him find some residence within his budget.

Not sure what is going on with your situation? Does he have dementia?  It may not be about the phone. I could be about the situation. And finding a different way of dealing with it?

And by the way, I've lived in an low-income family all of my life, so I am NOT like most arrogant youngsters. I am rather humble and reserved. And I may be young, but I'm NOT ignorant to growing up and be responsible. My Dad throws that in my face all of the time. As I've told him once, "There are many things I don't know, but I am learning EVER damn day myself. You don't help. And do not mistake a little ignorance for stupidity."

And yes, there are two sides to the same story. I am just afraid those who takes my dad's side will only cause more trouble than there already is. They would want to hear me and my mom's side because they've already decided what they view us: the wrong ones.

It is not like I care what they think, I am scared the trouble they may cause.

I am not being, "Mean and hateful," as my Dad had pointed out. I am just being cautious, and so is my mom. I assume we don't have that right?

Then we really are going to get into some forms in trouble. I fear that, too, which is the WHOLE reason I found this site by accident-quail my fear a little by talking about my problem, NOT to talk crap about my Dad.

But it's clear what I have to do, whenever if my mom agrees or not. The question is now....

….when is the best time? I already know the answer to half of that inquire: not much.

Guys. I told him I was recording him. He was well aware and saw my phone when he was calling me those names. And my mom, whom is his caregiver, she has rights too, and she has a right to herself, and she is protecting herself from outside turmoil my Dad may cause by giving him a cell phone. Same with a landline. And plus, we are only doing this just UNTIL we find him another place. Then once it's settled, I'll WALK to the nearest Target myself and get one. Once he's out, I don't care what others think. But in the meantime, we still take care of him. We had three meals today, I emptied his waste, dammit, and lastly, we have rights too, and I've read on an actual magazine on elderly care that if a care giver does not feel that they are obligated to do ANYTHING if they suspect the elder is trying to manipulate by guilting the care-giver or threatening them.

Also, has an update to those new to my problem, he has a cell phone, but the device only allows someone to call 911, which my dad had done five time in less than a week to try and get me and mom in trouble. Two of those cops out of the five that came were cool with what we've given them. So....

And hey, me and mom are not sitting around. We work. Me in the mornings, and mom starts in the evening. So, he is NOT home alone, only when mom picks me up from work.

We have no help, my dad is the aggressor, and we have the right to protect ourselves. And I know elders have rights and they are well defended. But I've already said what's going to happen. My dad says he's ready to leave. The HOUR me and/or my mom finalize a residence for him, I'm going straight to Target.

And P.S, while I'm not LEGALLY his care-taker, my mom is, BUT I still help out whenever I can, because my mom gets tired, she is 57 years old, and yet, works 8 hours at retail.

Joshua, you are intentionally breaking the law. You and mom were told it is elder abuse and it needs to be done. That anyone on this site has advised you otherwise is just opinion, NOT LEGAL ADVICE. Listen to the police, they know the laws for your area.

If I was a cop and you played that little blerp to me, I would ask you if that was his response to you and mom refusing to get him a phone.

He is completely bed ridden, how would you feel if you only had interactions with 2 people that obviously find you burdensome?

Did it ever dawn on you that you are here on AC doing the exact same thing to him that you say he will do to you? Talking crap without hearing both sides of the story.

You are very young and there is so much that it is difficult for you to understand, we have all been in your shoes. You can not begin to have any reality with getting older and loosing your independence. That must suck air.

No matter what has transpired, he is your dad and you have been warned and threatened with charges. Bite the bullet and get him a phone. You might find he is easier to deal with. As far as what his friends think, who cares. They are his friends of course they are going to side with him. That's what friends do.

Even though it has been really hard, please try to have some compassion for his life. Kindness towards him can help defuse some of the animosity that you feel towards him. Try it, can't hurt.

I am sure you know that it takes two to have an argument or fight. If you do your best and keep silent when he is grumping or yelling, it is just that, him grumbling and yelling. No fight, no argument.

I can tell you that law enforcement will almost always be an advocate for the underdog in these domestic cases. He is vulnerable and has no one. You and mom should think about the repercussions of keeping him isolated and fighting with him all the time. It is easier to be quiet then get out of jail. Just my opinion.

I don't think California recognizes common-law marriage.

Joshua; Please listen to me carefully.

The fact that your dad will throw you and mom under the bus is NOT a reason to deny him a phone. You are isolating him. This WILL be seen as elder abuse.

So, he calls friends and family and accuses you of nonsensical things?

Big deal. Does he have dementia? Does he have a mental illness?

Then get him evaluated for that.

Hello. Been awhile. Me and my mom have been quite busy with our jobs, and lately, it's been really peaceful the last week and a half or so. Until yesterday, on the 27th. An argument occurred about a cell phone again. See, there is something I forgot to mentioned to you all: the main reason why we refuse to get him a cell phone(besides the budget and effort coming into play) is because we(me and mom) don't trust him causing other forms in trouble, liking phoning his so-called friends and talking crap about us and portraying himself as the victim just because he's handicapped while the truth is, HE'S the aggressor. So, at the end of the argument I had with him last night he finally said he wanted to leave after I said I would only go and get him a phone the day he moved out so we (me and mom) wouldn't have to worry about him causing trouble one way or another. So, I researching care facilities. He wants to live in an apartment and have an homecare provider take care of him. I am sure I can't put him in a home without his consent so I am researching that, too.

And another thing, the reason why me and my mom are so worried he'll cause trouble by having a cell phone(even a landline) is because his "friends" have not seen his ugly side. To them, he's a handicapped gentlemen, and that we are the 'bullies' and the 'wrong one.' He's already got to my sisters and a few others(possibly our landlord, too) against us. Well, I have an audio recording of him cursing me out so if they ever try and confront me or my mom and try to tell us off, I'll play it.

"F you, you piece of sh!t," is one of the things on the audio recording. I have my evidence. It's not much buuuuuut, better than nothing when I point out that HE is the aggressor, handicapped or not, to whomever accuses me and my mom of being the 'wrong ones.'

Recently, he has been threating to 'get' my mom, as my dad put it, on neglect. So, as of yesterday, I've been taking pics of the food I feed him and logging it into a little notebook along with every little thing I do for hi., including the time and the date. Like this morning, I emptied his bucket of urine, shortly after another argument between us.

So, your thoughts...?

Josh317
Your mom should talk with his doctor and tell the doctor about his abuse, and get an order to admit him to a long term care facility. You don't say (and may not know) what his insurance is, but your mom can call the local Medicaid office to see if he is eligible, or if he is already on Medicaid ask the doctor to recommend a facility. This shouldn't be your burden to carry alone, and your mom will have to make these calls.
Stay the good young man that you are and keep us updated. You have friends on this site and we want to be here to help.
Please don't think of just walking away, as that will be considered as abuse, even if the thought of it sounds good. As difficult as he is, try to put your self in his place and imagine what life would be like. He's probably terrified. Even though this doesn't excuse his nastiness, it might help you cope with it a little better.

Josh, this is really bugging me.

You are 20 years old. You live with your mother and your disabled father in very limited accommodation, if you don't mind my saying so. I am sure that your support is invaluable to your mother, and I am also sure that the hours you put in are important to your Dad's care.

But this is *crazy*!!! What the heck? How come you have been led to be actually anxious that you have such a clear responsibility towards your father that you could be at risk of neglect charges if you don't meet required care standards?

How long has your father needed this care, and how long have you been sharing the burden with your mother?

It's not that there's anything wrong with helping your parents, of course not. But there is something terribly wrong with the obligations you seem to have been handed like this.

Basically - who passed you the buck? And what support do you all three get from outside the family?

My experience with patients with MS is that there is usually depression associated with it.
Has Dad always been depressed and been abusive? If this is the case there is little chance he will change now especially since MS is a progressive disease.
If he had not picked on needing an expensive cell phone as something to demand it would have been something else.
Of course he does not need it. He can perfectly well communicate with a simple flip phone if he wants to talk to people.
I would have thought a cheap laptop would have suited his needs better.
It does not matter who paid for the original phone, you can pick them up for a few $s and reload the minutes. I use a well advertised senior plan than costs me total $21 a month with unlimited calls.
Is Dad calling you and/or Mom at work and causing problems? I am not quite sure what the issue is. You can certainly turn off your phones when you are working.
Did one of you just get an expensive I phone and he feels entitled too? Well he is if that is the case he has income comming into the house too.
I totally understand that the two of you have had enough of this abuse and just want to walk away but you do have responsibility to someone who is totally unable to care for themselves.
Clearly you are doing the best you can and he is not making it easier being totally helpless in bed . I know you have to work but it is definitely not safe to leave a helpless person of any age alone for any length of time. What happens if there is a fire.
Don't delay get in touch with any social service that could possibly help. His Dr. Eldercare in your county, Catholic Charities, the VA if he was a veteran anyone you can think of. If they can't help they may know who can. Get on the Internetand look for any MS resources. This is going to take work to get your Dad into a situation where he will be properly looked after.

Just moving out is not an option. Keep that in mind.

Do they really have phones where you can adjust them so you can only call certain numbers on it? Numbers programmed into the phone? Because, if so, where can I get one? Target? Walmart? I will have to get him one, because I don't want to get in trouble by 'isolating' him. Least he'll have something. By the way everyone, my Dad is 67, and the three of us live in a two-bedroom apartment. Me and Dad have the rooms, Mom sleeps in the dinner room on her bed. I work very early in the morning either 4:30am or 6:am and I'm usually home by 10 or 11:30am. Mom starts work around 2 or 3pm.

Point is, my Dad is never home alone. The only time he's alone is when my mom drives me to work or to my doctor, because I don't have a driver's license as of yet. With the latter, he would only be alone for an hour plus some minutes. And we always tell him when we go out.

Josh is 20. The elder in question is his Dad - anybody over 40 is an elder when you're only 20, I guess. His father has MS and is bed bound, which I take to mean he's pretty severely disabled by this horrible disease. But it also sounds as if Josh's mother has had all she can take from him, and I for one can't blame her for that - the effects on his personality may not be Dad's fault, but it sure as heck isn't her fault either and there has to be a limit.

And Josh, I don't think you can claim that your father is not at risk of isolation because he has a t.v. to watch.

Any updates?

Looks like you all live together. If there is a landline then he doesn't need a cell phone. If no landline I suggest you get Dad an emergency button. When he pushes it an operator comes on. She will determine if his call is an emergency. You and Mom can request that you be called before operator calls 911. Then you can get rid of the 911 only phone.

You call this man Dad. Is he your father or Grandfather. Has his illness effected his ability to make informed decisions? Does Mom have POA?
Is he living with u or him with you?

I would start with Office of Aging. Approach the situation that with you both working you are not able to give or afford the care he needs.

Is there not a landline in the house?

Er, Josh..?

I'm really sorry to read of your and your family's situation.

Does it have to be like this? Is "either he goes or we go" really the only option left?

I'm just wondering if you or your mother are in touch with any MS support groups, I suppose. Did you get in touch with the social workers, what's going on there?

Hello all. This is Josh. Thought I'd give y'all a small update if you're interested. Firstly, I just wanted to say thank you all for the great advice, tips, and warnings, because no manner whom is in the right in my 'lovely' situation, the very LAST thing I want is to go to jail. I've been good during my 20 years, want it to stay like that until the day I die.

Anyway, it's been quiet and peaceful at the home for the last few days since I've posted this; been five days since the last police visit. But Dad is still expecting a 'good' phone. "A smartphone," he says. I ignore him in regards to the phone stuff and let him say and think whatever he wants, because as long as he's not threatening, harassing, or bringing the cops over here I'm actually really, really happy. And a quick note, in regards to the possibility of 'isolating' him, he does have a t.v which he watches all day, everyday even BEFORE this whole phone business started; he loves his sport channels. So, he does have some form of entertainment. I plan to lend him one of my books-I like to read-so he can have more enjoyments to his days, I guess.

Lastly, what we(me and mom)plan on doing.

Two things: either we get him out somehow or we are leaving. If we leave, we'll quickly alert social services so they can send someone else to take care of him, so we won't be charged with abandonment of an elder.

I strongly prefer if we can get him out somehow and into a nursing home; moving would be pain. It's quiet now, but sooner or later, my dad is going to start in again.

Me and mom are trying to get in touch with social workers so we can see if they can do anything for us or help us out in finding my dad a home, me and my mom have sh*t incomes, after all, just enough to eat, pay bills, and internet.

If no one can get him out for us, then we are definitely moving and we are getting ready just incase we cannot get him out; I am even bringing hom boxes from my workplace for our stuff already. We are done with the verbal abuse, and to be rather honest, we are done taking care of him. I, for one, am, quiet. But in the meantime, we watch his hygiene, he gets fed, and we make sure he doesn't fall off the bed, etc, etc, etc,etc,etc.

So......I suppose that's it. Again, thank you all for the advice. It was all, quite helpful. Those policemen spooked me, because I do not want anything on my record. Who does?

OH!

And my dad is not demented, he's just stubborn and a fighter. Oh, boy! He is a fighter! He may be bed-bound, but that mouth of his.....oooohhhhhhhh boy....

Josh, do as tacy recommends and get him a free government phone.

In Arizona repeated calls to 911 for no emergency reason can get you charged with wasting public resources and it is pretty serious.

If your dad is abusive, and threatening you and mom because he didn't get his way, is abuse. May be time to get him placed in a facility.

You are a good man to be helping your mom with this difficult situation. My hats off to you.

Just be sure and try to not give him all of your young life, many people feel entitled to be the center of the universe at everyone's expense, encourage your mom to get him help or placement. No one deserves to live with abuse. Between her and you, you can change this situation and not have to deal with a tyrant.

Let us know what you get figured out.

Hugs 2 u and mom for not throwing him to the curb.

I may be off base here, but if I were you, Josh, I’d get the cantankerous old you-know-what a burner phone. Load it with one of those cards with minutes from Walmart and when he uses those up, too bad. You’ve gotten him a phone as per the “police order”. If he uses up the minutes on nuisance calls, that is on him. If he keeps calling the police, they have to come out. They can’t complain because THEY were the ones who said he has to have a phone. They will see he’s not being abused or neglected. And you and Mom will be in the clear. It doesn’t have to be an iPhone X.

Cover your own behind by getting him the burner phone. Then just sit back while the police wear a path to your door.

Hi Josh,

I live in California, and your situation may be seen as preventing your father from having the ability to communicate with others at his own will. This would be considered socially isolating your father and yes, this is seen as a form of elder abuse.

Google Free Government Cell phone and go from there.

I have the funny feeling there is a lot missing in this post. Who is “the elder”. Is it a grandparent? Parent? And why would the police care if “the elder” had a phone? He’s able to call for help, as if he had a Life Alert. So where does the “abuse”:come in?

Is Josh the Elder’s Caregiver? If he is, why is a 20 year old caregiving and financially responsible for the Elder?

Am I missing something here?

I’m surprised that 911 don’t have a system to screen for repeated nuisance calls, but not surprised that the police would just love you to give granddad a new cell phone and solve their problem. Could you change the ‘emergency’ number he can reach? I presume a family number isn’t possible. Perhaps if you call APS and explain, they could take the calls. They should have more expertise to work out if it is an actual emergency. But surely your parents should be sorting out the problem!

Why would the cops expect you to pay for his phone?  I'd advise stepping out of it - he is your parents' responsibility. Can you suggest the cops talk to whoever has his POA?

As mentioned, maybe 911 is tired of getting non emergency calls. There are phones that can be programmed to only call or receive from certain numbers. Perhaps that would work...or does no one want to take his calls?? Is that the real issue?

And why why are you responsible for buying anyone’s phone!?

If this is a grandparent then his care is your parents responsibility not yours. Is he in his home? AL or NH? If in his home why only 911? Does he have Dementia/ALZ. You are probably being threaten because he is calling 911 asking for cops for a non-emergency reason. Maybe time to place person in a nursing facility.

Really, need more info why he can't have a cell phone.

Who is the elder? Why is it your responsibility to get him a phone? How old is he? There must be other information that you can tell us. Is the elder sick? If you are isolating him, limiting his access to others, that in fact, could be abuse.

The law varies from state to state so without knowing what state you are in, no one can say for absolutely certain that it’s not elder abuse or illegal.