This happened with my Mom... she stopped eating. This went on for about 3 days. It was clear that hospice should be brought in. Her back caused her a lot of pain and the doctors finally admitted there was no longer anything they could do for her.
she had already refused drinks for 2 days before hospice eval. She was sucking on little sponges and swabbing the inside of her mouth.
you need to know that hospice does not starve patients...or refuse them drink. It happens when the body begins to shut completely down. Hospice had nothing to do with it.
The morphine was to control the pain she had in her back. Why live your final days in agony? Would you do that to your dog? Your Mom?
I think you whole question was trying to lead people to believe that hospice does this to cause early termination of their patients, Nothing is further from the truth, and the implication that they do is actually insulting to those of us who endured all those final days/hours with their loved one.
You are right............well said. When I read how hospice 'kills' people it riles me up because I had hospice services in for my dad who I loved dearly, and no, hospice certainly did NOT 'kill' him! What they did was they made his last days on earth bearable instead of filled with pain & agony, for him AND for us. When end of life is imminent, what on earth is the point in 'giving medications'......for what? To prolong their agony so they can live another day or week? Here in Colorado, we have assisted suicide, which I think is awesome, and something I'd use for myself in a HEARTBEAT to save my children the agony of the whole end of life debacle.
That’s a broad question because that scenario can happen if you have surgery or you are at the end of life and on hospice.
in the case of hospice at the end of the life.....there comes a point where you don’t need food. Medications except those that keep you comfortable are stopped. If morphine is given, it’s the same dose they give you after surgery. It’s not s lethal dose contrary to popular belief.
Janiel, am I right in thinking that you have asked a leading question?
I think we can perhaps be more supportive if you would like to share what is worrying you specifically. Are you struggling with decisions about a loved one's end-of-life treatment at the moment, or something like that?
There is no "right" answer to this question. It is antagonistic, imo. The OP is new here, and may have already left the community, not desirous of an answer, or solutions to a situation.
rhe·tor·i·cal ques·tion
a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.
The proof will be if the OP returns to explain. At that point, I would consider asking what Janiel's real question is??? Giving her the benefit of the doubt, and willing to support her.
My stepmother chose hospice for herself. She refused to eat or drink, refused a feeding tube and IV hydration. She directed me to arrange her hospice care and complete DNR. She could still decide to eat or drink if she felt up to it, which occasionally she did. But she was ready to go. Had had 2 catastrophic strokes that left her bed bound, no use of her hands, diminished vision, and no speech. She didn’t pass away for NINE MONTHS. So hospice is not always an immediate death sentence.
My MIL also chose hospice. She had an incredibly fast growing, aggressive and painful cancer. No treatment could help her. She didn’t want to delay the inevitable while also being miserable going through chemo just to give her a few more weeks. She also could direct when or if she wanted to eat/drink and if she needed pain medication up until a few days before she passed. She eventually was unconscious, but even before that she just didn’t want to eat much, she said it hurt her stomach too much. If she asked for a drink, she got one, but that diminished on her own account as well. For her it was 2 weeks for her to pass. And she was thankful as she knew the end was near she could say her final goodbyes to everyone.
Death comes for us all. At end of life, the body shuts itself down, one system at a time generally starting with digestion. I’d think we’d all like to end our time without pain and misery and the anxious hand-wringing of our loved ones. It’s not about the family and friends not wanting their person to die...they’re going to die at some point. And when death is imminent, send them off with love and peace.
absolutely send them off with love and peace . but hospice and "my sisters" just stopped giving mom food and stopped giving her medication to her and started giving her morphine . and i can't say for a fact but it seemed like they were giving it to her more often .(8hrs . 6hrs .. )THEN she fell asleep and didn't wake up . coma i guess ..? it was like 3 days . but they kept giving her morphine for those 3 days . i didn't realize what they were actually doing until it was too late . then within minutes .. seconds .. OH . MY . GOD . i knew . i knew without any doubt . my sisters and hospice killed my mother . i felt sick in my stomach . it was unbearable . i got outside my car and had to vomit . twice . this is not happening . my own sisters and hospice killed mom . unreal . nightmare . what am i going to do? i begged God and mom to forgive me . I BEGGED FOR FORGIVENESS FROM THEM BOTH . i didn't know . i had no idea . not even close . it was unimaginable . but truth is yes, beyond any doubt the three of them had intentionally, purposely and unfortunately legally murdered my mother . how can they sleep at night? how can they live knowing they did this? i wonder .
Jeniel, please fill in your Bio on you Profile page, so that we can all understand your situation, and give us further details, if you want an honest answer to your question, otherwise you are just riling people up on an age old Hospice question that has been asked numerous here on the forum. Also, if you type in "Hospice, end of life care", you will find loads of advice on the subject.
We do know that nearly every one has questions about this issue when faced with placing a Loved one on Hospice and end of life care, I've been there myself a couple of times, so your questions are just as important as the next person, but more details are needed to help you. I hope we can help, God bless!
My 2 cents worth.. If I become bedridden and have health issues which cannot be reversed, and it's towards the end of the line for me, I may just ask forDoctor assisted help me move to Heaven, (hope that's where I'm going, if not I will just stay around and haunt my family :)
Nothing is fool proof. All we can hope for is a peaceful exit. I know some poeple who use this extra time to visit with friends and family, and make the best of it. That was wonderful too.
Janiel, your question is quite vague. I am assuming that you are curious about Hospice care? When an elder is thought to be in the last stages of dying, often due to an incurable illness, sometime just very aged and infirm, having chosen or unable to eat? Without more information I cannot tell you much other than body systems. We all need food and hydration to continue to live for any length of time. Often with the withdrawal of food alone the body can sustain itself for a month or more. The withdrawal of food and fluids will make the dying process much longer. As to medications, it would depend on what they were for. For instance, the withdrawal of drugs to lower our cholesterol, a daily aspirin, would make little difference. The withdrawal of insulin in a diabetic might hasten death. Let us know if your question is more personal and involved, or if you are merely curious about time frames for hospice care.
“The withdrawal of food and fluids will make the dying process much longer”. That’s usually not true. You don’t live longer if you stop eating and drinking.
It's really all been said here but just to clarify there is a difference between withdrawing food and not forcing food (same with fluids really). A person at the end of life, especially a very ill person will often stop eating on their own and if there is no recovery expectation it seems inhumane to me to force feed them. Likewise if a person is in their last days and you are choosing the humane (IMHO) way of letting them go it seems logical to me to stop forcing medications in them that aren't helping them, especially if they aren't eating or perhaps it's a tremendous effort to swallow, why force them to suffer more (or at all) unless of course it's to ease any pain or discomfort they might be having and that can be administered without having to make them swallow it or deal with stomach issues because they aren't eating with their meds. Offering an adult patient food, drink and even medications and then honoring their wishes about accepting or not seems a respectful thing to to do to me.
Hello to my fellow family caregivers and really, anyone who may be trying to learn or decide what to expect about their end of life options, mainly when a terminal illness is diagnosed. It is not a death sentence, but rather a way to literally ease suffering. The patient always has the option to change their mind if they want, no questions asked. It's much easier to be prepared for this sad time if the patient and caregivers have some insight. I have seen several instances, in my own family as well as my clients, when awareness was missing or most often a combination of denial, avoidance, or guilty feelings were hindering people from thinking clearly, and understanding what to know about their situation. It often seemed that needless suffering happened, and may have been prevented for everyone concerned. Every patient has unique and a very personal journey to make until the end of their life. Hospice is flexible and NOT a thing to fear. It is not a death sentence. Patients are evaluated to determine whether the patient has been diagnosed by a doctor as terminal, with 6 months or less, of life expected. The patient will be re-evaluated every six months, and may even be discharged at that time if they improve. The patient also has every right to discontinue hospice if they want to. I used to do both adult foster care and private duty (in home) caregiving/hospice care. It's been about 5 years, and my work has been mainly in Michigan, so may be different in other states. Anyway, Roxinol is a low dose prescription of liquid morphine that is given with an eyedropper, and in my hospice care experience, was used to help patients breathe. This was not intended to treat pain. In fact, there often were standard "kits", that also contained a low dose prescription of Ativan to help calm restlessness or anxiety. When food and water are refused, the body is likely shutting down and no longer will be needed. Forcing water or food could be dangerous if the patient chokes as a result. Other items like glycerin swabs or moth sponges to moisten dry lips and mouths. Oxygen These are/were palliative care measures. They were not intended to be used for prolonging or extending the life of patients. Sadly, many of my patients and their families, including my own, hope for miracles, new medicines or therapies, or even possible remission from the disease(s) or condition they suffer, and so wait till it's way past a more realistic time to ask the patient what they want to do, and reassure them, ask for the doctor to explore hospice, and be more mindful of what hospice care really is for them, in terms of the flexibility of entering as well as leaving hospice care if the patient wishes can offer to both the patient and their family in ways that may so helpful and supportive during this sad time, and after if needed. I hope my sharing of what could be might help someone who is afraid or unaware to ask questions. Peace! Allison
I apologize for my assumptions about the selfless devotion I observed first hand and the ways from the confident and experienced nurses, when hospice was not a for profit business. They were my awesome heroines! The corporations that have been taking advantage of other people's misfortunes should be heavily fined and or charged with negligence and be reviewed frequently by a separate state authority, and, employees from aides who are just riding a clock to nurse 'care managers', who are only willing to do the bare minimum of actual care even if it's just managing to make the paperwork measure up to what their employers require, to be acceptable. Then never even bothering to reach out to hold a patients hand, never mind check their pulse, because that's just 'grunt work' for the aides to do. Empty a bedpan? Ha! They just are not qualified, period. These FOR profit organizations are no better than the insurance companies who will find any reason they can to avoid spending their shareholders and CEOs money on those who are stressed enough already, to worry about coverage or horrendous co-pays, need to be called out and exposed as the grifters they are. They have no shame. It's just business you know. Grrr…. I worked with a community health department, witnessed amazing home-health nurses and fellow aides, and bathers. The difference is like night and day. I'm shocked, but not all that surprised, because toward the end of my working days, I did see a difference from what I'd taken to be the way hospice was supposed to be, back when it was still an honorable cause, to that of those run by the for profit healthcare industry. It was not up to my standards because of rules that limited the ways or skills they could or could not apply, I saw this, and agreed, with my clients. I guess I was naïve, and had a fat head, because for me the patient was my boss, and I'd do things like climb a ladder to change a lightbulb, or move furniture to be less obstructive to traffic, or just to vacuum, who would do it if I didn't?! I was angered and saddened after my favorite (tiny, frail and bony) lady fell and broke her tailbone, so was hospitalized and then was neglected, once for hours, but too often to have happened, if at all, on a toilet seat, because no aides in the aftercare rehab facility had bothered to see why she had rung the bell, or just forgot to. She needed help to transfer to her wheelchair and to bed. They called her names behind her back. She was from Germany and they called her the Nazi lady. What a crew of jerks! Anyway, to Janiel and others, I had viewed what this topic is about in an idealistic, and biased way. Please be reassured that I learned something today! Allisontheoldbaker
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she had already refused drinks for 2 days before hospice eval. She was sucking on little sponges and swabbing the inside of her mouth.
you need to know that hospice does not starve patients...or refuse them drink. It happens when the body begins to shut completely down. Hospice had nothing to do with it.
The morphine was to control the pain she had in her back. Why live your final days in agony? Would you do that to your dog? Your Mom?
I think you whole question was trying to lead people to believe that hospice does this to cause early termination of their patients, Nothing is further from the truth, and the implication that they do is actually insulting to those of us who endured all those final days/hours with their loved one.
in the case of hospice at the end of the life.....there comes a point where you don’t need food. Medications except those that keep you comfortable are stopped. If morphine is given, it’s the same dose they give you after surgery. It’s not s lethal dose contrary to popular belief.
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I think we can perhaps be more supportive if you would like to share what is worrying you specifically. Are you struggling with decisions about a loved one's end-of-life treatment at the moment, or something like that?
The OP is new here, and may have already left the community, not desirous of an answer, or solutions to a situation.
rhe·tor·i·cal ques·tion
a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.
The proof will be if the OP returns to explain. At that point, I would consider asking what Janiel's real question is??? Giving her the benefit of the doubt, and willing to support her.
My MIL also chose hospice. She had an incredibly fast growing, aggressive and painful cancer. No treatment could help her. She didn’t want to delay the inevitable while also being miserable going through chemo just to give her a few more weeks. She also could direct when or if she wanted to eat/drink and if she needed pain medication up until a few days before she passed. She eventually was unconscious, but even before that she just didn’t want to eat much, she said it hurt her stomach too much. If she asked for a drink, she got one, but that diminished on her own account as well. For her it was 2 weeks for her to pass. And she was thankful as she knew the end was near she could say her final goodbyes to everyone.
Death comes for us all. At end of life, the body shuts itself down, one system at a time generally starting with digestion. I’d think we’d all like to end our time without pain and misery and the anxious hand-wringing of our loved ones. It’s not about the family and friends not wanting their person to die...they’re going to die at some point. And when death is imminent, send them off with love and peace.
We do know that nearly every one has questions about this issue when faced with placing a Loved one on Hospice and end of life care, I've been there myself a couple of times, so your questions are just as important as the next person, but more details are needed to help you. I hope we can help, God bless!
Nothing is fool proof. All we can hope for is a peaceful exit. I know some poeple who use this extra time to visit with friends and family, and make the best of it. That was wonderful too.
As to medications, it would depend on what they were for. For instance, the withdrawal of drugs to lower our cholesterol, a daily aspirin, would make little difference. The withdrawal of insulin in a diabetic might hasten death.
Let us know if your question is more personal and involved, or if you are merely curious about time frames for hospice care.
It is not a death sentence, but rather a way to literally ease suffering. The patient always has the option to change their mind if they want, no questions asked.
It's much easier to be prepared for this sad time if the patient and caregivers have some insight.
I have seen several instances, in my own family as well as my clients, when awareness was missing or most often a combination of denial, avoidance, or guilty feelings were hindering people from thinking clearly, and understanding what to know about their situation. It often seemed that needless suffering happened, and may have been prevented for everyone concerned. Every patient has unique and a very personal journey to make until the end of their life.
Hospice is flexible and NOT a thing to fear. It is not a death sentence. Patients are evaluated to determine whether the patient has been diagnosed by a doctor as terminal, with 6 months or less, of life expected. The patient will be re-evaluated every six months, and may even be discharged at that time if they improve. The patient also has every right to discontinue hospice if they want to.
I used to do both adult foster care and private duty (in home) caregiving/hospice care. It's been about 5 years, and my work has been mainly in Michigan, so may be different in other states.
Anyway, Roxinol is a low dose prescription of liquid morphine that is given with an eyedropper, and in my hospice care experience, was used to help patients breathe. This was not intended to treat pain.
In fact, there often were standard "kits", that also contained a low dose prescription of Ativan to help calm restlessness or anxiety. When food and water are refused, the body is likely shutting down and no longer will be needed. Forcing water or food could be dangerous if the patient chokes as a result.
Other items like glycerin swabs or moth sponges to moisten dry lips and mouths. Oxygen These are/were palliative care measures. They were not intended to be used for prolonging or extending the life of patients.
Sadly, many of my patients and their families, including my own, hope for miracles, new medicines or therapies, or even possible remission from the disease(s) or condition they suffer, and so wait till it's way past a more realistic time to ask the patient what they want to do, and reassure them, ask for the doctor to explore hospice, and be more mindful of what hospice care really is for them, in terms of the flexibility of entering as well as leaving hospice care if the patient wishes can offer to both the patient and their family in ways that may so helpful and supportive during this sad time, and after if needed.
I hope my sharing of what could be might help someone who is afraid or unaware to ask questions.
Peace!
Allison
The corporations that have been taking advantage of other people's misfortunes should be heavily fined and or charged with negligence and be reviewed frequently by a separate state authority, and, employees from aides who are just riding a clock to nurse 'care managers', who are only willing to do the bare minimum of actual care even if it's just managing to make the paperwork measure up to what their employers require, to be acceptable. Then never even bothering to reach out to hold a patients hand, never mind check their pulse, because that's just 'grunt work' for the aides to do. Empty a bedpan? Ha! They just are not qualified, period.
These FOR profit organizations are no better than the insurance companies who will find any reason they can to avoid spending their shareholders and CEOs money on those who are stressed enough already, to worry about coverage or horrendous co-pays, need to be called out and exposed as the grifters they are. They have no shame. It's just business you know. Grrr….
I worked with a community health department, witnessed amazing home-health nurses and fellow aides, and bathers. The difference is like night and day. I'm shocked, but not all that surprised, because toward the end of my working days, I did see a difference from what I'd taken to be the way hospice was supposed to be, back when it was still an honorable cause, to that of those run by the for profit healthcare industry.
It was not up to my standards because of rules that limited the ways or skills they could or could not apply, I saw this, and agreed, with my clients. I guess I was naïve, and had a fat head, because for me the patient was my boss, and I'd do things like climb a ladder to change a lightbulb, or move furniture to be less obstructive to traffic, or just to vacuum, who would do it if I didn't?!
I was angered and saddened after my favorite (tiny, frail and bony) lady fell and broke her tailbone, so was hospitalized and then was neglected, once for hours, but too often to have happened, if at all, on a toilet seat, because no aides in the aftercare rehab facility had bothered to see why she had rung the bell, or just forgot to. She needed help to transfer to her wheelchair and to bed. They called her names behind her back. She was from Germany and they called her the Nazi lady. What a crew of jerks!
Anyway, to Janiel and others, I had viewed what this topic is about in an idealistic, and biased way. Please be reassured that I learned something today! Allisontheoldbaker