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dmypub Asked August 2020

Paralyzed by DIFFICULT Mother in Law; Do we let her have her way and watch her waste away?

MIL is an 89 year old woman, my wife's mother.


1. My wife, daughter and I are at our wits end and appear to be paralyzed as to how to proceed. All of us have gone the extra 100 miles to improve M's life. We moved M from the midwest to Nevada to be able to help her out. Pages and pages could be written. All our efforts have been resisted. We are sad, feeling helpless and paralyzed.


2. These major efforts have been rejected: a. better, more rent stable apartment and b. apartment cleaning and general life assistance.


3. M is often mean, makes nasty statements and irrational accusations to initiate fights with my wife. M excessively complains and whines about issues in her life to my wife and daughter.


4. M was not a nurturing or very loving mother which makes giving support to an often mean person very very difficult.


4. M is irrationally obsessive about saving/spending money. She saves over $1000 each month and has 30k in cash in the bank. She's saving for a "rainy day". Meanwhile, it is pouring out! She rejected a service we found that cost $500 / month for professional cleaning and general life support. It was "too expensive".


5. M is wasting away in her apartment. Her apartment is NOT hygienic. Her apartment smells like urine. She is unable to cut her toenails. She will NOT make any decision or take any positive action and rejects our advice because she does not trust us. She even claims that we are stealing her money. Yes, we do realize there is some dementia going on, but she has historically not been very rational in her decision making to start with.


6. M expects help and complains about not getting help but a solution is difficult because the solution is either too expensive or M is too picky about the individual we find to help clean her apartment.


7. We are NOT going to start providing nursing services for her. We have provided some general cleanup support, but in the context of the "Big Picture here", it is becoming too much.


My wife is a very kind person. She seems paralyzed and unable to enforce "tough love" measures. I hate having to see my wife getting abused and intentionally made to feel guilty by not being able to solve M's issues. Personally, I am inclined to make M take the $500 per month cleaning and general assistance service. Otherwise, I would report her to County Adult services. BUT it isn't my mother and this isn't my decision...


SO,


Do we let M have her way and watch her waste away? Eventually she will fall down in her apartment and end up hospitalized and be forced into a "worst case" nursing home ?


OR,


do we SOMEHOW force M into a somewhat better living situation with outside professional assistance ? (NOT considering formal Assisted Living)


Either choice SUCKS and in either choice, M will end up hating my wife. My wife is in a "no win" situation.


We have reached a point where M is increasingly impacting our lives. We feel we've done what we can and left with no options we now need to make an effort to minimize M's negative impacts.


It is clear- we are going to have a big mess to resolve at M's end of life. Her estate will be a mess to to deal with. As far as we're concerned, the government can have all her assets. We don't want to deal with the bureaucratic mess she will be leaving.


Any advice for us on how we can minimize our legal / healthcare hassles is greatly appreciated !


Thank you,

BarbBrooklyn Aug 2020
Send your wife here.

Look up Fear, Obligation and Guilt (aka F.O.G.), which is what MIL is using to control your wife).

Your wife made vows to you, not her mom. You may need to force this issue with her and get her to a therapist so that she can overcome her "grooming".

Unless MiL is declared incompetent, there is nothing you can do to force care. Yes, you SHOULD report her to APS as a vulnerable adult. Let the state take guardianship if she is declared incompetent.

As you cannprobably tell, I have little patience for stubborn elders who want to be propped up in their fantasy of "independence". I've seen both scenarios play out in my family and have seen a life destroyed by parents who are like this. Don't go down that path.
agingmother4343 Aug 2020
Thank you! Great advice and reminders!
NobodyGetsIt Aug 2020
Dear "dmypub,"

I feel bad that your family is having to go through this with your mother-in-law. The first thing you need to get your mind around is your MIL will never, ever change. You all are beating your heads against the wall hoping, thinking and expecting things to suddenly become different - they won't. She will never be agreeable, considerate or cooperative. This is who she is and has been. You're right, your wife as well as you and your daughter are in a "no win" situation. Your MIL has been manipulating your wife I suspect all her life and she is taking advantage of your wife's kindness - intentionally. She knows this will paralyze not only your wife but, the rest of you. She knows that it is impacting all of you but, does not care! Even if she has some dementia, this is the foundation of your MIL's personality. I wonder if she has NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) or some other type of personality disorder.

Unfortunately, there are times when all of the choices "SUCK" as you put it. Somehow, someway your wife with your help needs to "take the bull by the horns." My mom who is 95 with Alzheimer's is a first born of 8 siblings and extremely independent. I used to "ask" what she wants to do. I no longer "ask." I make a decision and then "tell" her what will be taking place in still a kind but, firm way. Your wife is stuck in the "child" mode instead of the grown woman she really is based on how she grew up.

I think this is way above what you are able to figure out on your own and you will need to get advice/guidance. Your MIL will always have an excuse for why something can or can't be done. Maybe you can talk to a social worker with your local "Area of Aging Agency" who is not "in" the situation, can be objective and give you concrete options or more resources. That was how I started when it came to my mom as I had no idea what to do or where to turn.

As for her estate, I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with the "mess" it will be when that time comes. I know sometimes a local Senior Center in someone's city may have some initial free legal counsel from a lawyer on staff.

I know I don't have concrete steps for you to take but, sometimes just getting a start is enough to get off the ground and more and more resources/options become available.

I sure wish you and your family some peace as you try to deal and cope with what sounds like running into obstacle after obstacle.

By the way, if any of you like to read, I would suggest "Boundaries" by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It was the most helpful book I've ever read and boundaries are a necessity in all aspects of our lives!
agingmother4343 Aug 2020
Thank you Nobody Getsit!
i am in the exact same boat except my mother has no estate and not even $1.
I will order “Boundaries” which I have been trying very very hard to set. Only daughter and family member to take care of these needs.
my mother is young, only 77 but physically and mentally abused 4 children her entire life. I do have fear, feel obligated since she has absolutely no one else and guilt simply because she is my mother.

thanks for sharing valuable resources. Good luck to all in this terrible situation.

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Geaton777 Aug 2020
Hello dmypub,

You are at the place I have come to call The Crisis of Realization. Many before you have smashed headlong into this wall and now you are all dazed, uncertain what to do because your rational mind KNOWS that continuing to do the same strategies will NOT improve the situation. But this is not a no-win situation because you and your wife need to stop looking at it as such. You have my sympathies, as I was also a "crash" victim. Here is what I've learned and I hope it helps you and your wife.

1) does your wife (or anyone) have durable PoA for MIL? (If no, then skip to paragraph about family guardianship vs. county guardianship.)

2) If your wife (or whomever) does have PoA, then she must now dust off that document and start making decisions *in her mother's best interests*. This does NOT mean decisions/actions that make her mom happy. There is no such thing anymore. By your own description your MIL is 1) incontinent 2) unable to carry out her ADLs (Activities of Daily Living) which she needs to remain "independent". If you and your wife begin doing things for her you will only prolong and prop up the illusion of independence. By your own description she sounds like she has cognitive decline, which is characterized by negative personality changes and short-term memory problems. It will be a total waste of time and energy to try to "make her happy". The caregiving arrangement must work for both parties. Right now it is not working for your wife/you.

1) start providing in-home services for MIL to remain in her apartment (but you will be battling her on every front since she must pay for it and she will be firing people you send over or physically resisting them).
-- or --
2) she is moved into a good, reputable, local facility where she will get any and all medical attention she needs, plus the benefit of socialization AND your wife/you will have peace of mind and can visit her as often as you wish. The medical staff can try meds for her mood/agitation if they think it necessary and she may be more like her prior self. No guarantees. When she runs out of funds have your wife apply for Medicaid for her and the only difference will be she will have to then share a room.

Please have your wife take her in to the doctor for a cognitive exam and test for UTI (which is very common in the elderly and often have no other symptoms than personality/behavior changes like confusion/agitation). Your wife can tell her a "therpeutic fib" to get her to the doc ("Medicare now requires an annual physical").

If no one has PoA for her and she won't assign one: then if your wife/you wish to continue making decisions on her behalf and managing her care legally, she will need to pursue guardianship through the courts. This can cost thousands (that should come out of your MIL's estate) and time and energy. If your wife doesn't go this route, then she WILL have to stand on the sidelines and watch the slo-mo train wreck, calling APS and having the county take guardianship. In this case your wife will have no say at all in where her mom resides, what her medical/dental care is and will lose control of her assets and be locked out of her accounts. She will be able to visit her mom and carry on her relationship, she just will have no say in anything until she passes.

This is a lot to process but you must stop believing that you are paralyzed. Your wife needs to make a decision. Deciding not to decide is a decision -- and then the county comes in and will make all of them for MIL. It would help you two to educate yourselves on decline and dementia. There are useful Teepa Snow videos on YouTube and many books. This will help your wife to better interact with her mother. She is no longer the Original Mother (she's in there somewhere but is unable to come to the surface). Your wife is now dealing with Declining Mom and must stop attributing every negative action to her "personality" or choice. Those days are mostly gone. Good luck!

Blue24 Aug 2020
I, being daughter, was in the same position as your wife.. Only DH is also in a decline (physically) and Mom, living across state lines in a huge house, with enough funds to change her situation for the better, but refused to do so.

I started this battle a few years ago ith my mom, before anything serious happened, but the red flag popped up when two incidents occured in the same year. First one, she side swipes a parked firetruck (but it was the firetruck's fault!), Second, she allowed a broken pipe downstairs to run and flood for 3 hours, during that three hours the neighbor banged on the door trying to wake her up. My mom's hearing was shot. She refused to get hearing aids.

I live 300 miles away.

There was no convincing her that it was best to downsize and move back to California in a IL or AL close to me. And we have some nice ones near us.

She too, extremely miserly, stubborn and just not willing to give a millimeter of independence up. I didn't visit much at this point because of my husbands' situation and I needed to make sure I was there for him. Everytime I brought up the 'downsizing' subject on the phone . .she would shut it down before I had a chance to even lay out the choices and possibilities. So after a time a I gave up bringing it up. AT this point, I knew the time was coming soon for that 'phone call'.

And one morning, at 9am, that phone call rang. It was the beginning of the end and I knew it. But there was still no convincing, nothing I could do to change her situation. Why? She refused to give up her independence. She refused to face the fact that she was nearing her end . .even if were 5 or so years away - she was in the last chapter of her life. She refused to assign me POA. She refused to handle anything in her estate, most likely because that would mean, to her, the end would come sooner rather than later. I tried for Guardianship, but no doctor would claim she was in cognitive decline (which she was, and I have much evidence to prove it, but she put on 'the show' for doctors everytime) . I was stuck legally.

Her end came sooner regardless. I had no power to change her direction or lengthen her life. She passed two months ago at 89, of CHF, and other heart complications.

And now, I am dealing with the estate. Probate was filed last week. The house (3300sq ft, 2 stories) has a RM on it and full of 'stuff'. I have to go through all that stuff. Stuff that I remember in my childhood home. Useless stuff too. I have to be the one to throw it all out or give it away or sell.

All you can do is sit back and watch. And Stress. And cry (your wife will do that part I'm sure). These 'mom's who have no regard for their children or family are heartless, selfish and stubborn and unfortunately, it's us children of these types of mom's have to inherit this sort of BS. It sucks.

I'm sorry for what you are going through. But keep coming to this forum, because you'll find that you are not alone. And maybe you'll get some ideas to try and change the course of you mom's fate. Either that . . or you just walk away and keep her caustic attitude and 'mess' clear of your lives.
AlvaDeer Aug 2020
Blue, what a wonderful reply. Proves what I said. Not everything can be fixed. Some things have to be got through. You went ALL the way, even to seeking guardianship to protect. Please take care of yourself in all you are currently doing, and I hope that you find some "treasure" amidst all that junk that makes you a bundle, and lets you give out a giggle in Mom's general direction. Remember, my bro used to hide money in books. Then figured that was dangerous when he was failing a bit and put it in towels. Luckily, when his dear friend cleaned out for him I knew where to tell him to look! Don't let goodwill get the goods!
Monica19815 Aug 2020
I am in a similar situation with my MIL (narcissist and liar) and my husband recently decided to just let her have her way and wait for the big crisis to happen. In their last conversation she yelled at him and told him to stay out of her business. She is 93 and recently chose to have a hysterectomy (you read that right) and it was cancerous and the cancer will show up again soon. She chose hormone therapy as treatment.. My husband called her oncologist to ask for a status report after MIL'S recent appointment and she yelled at him for that. MIL has also broken the retirement community COVID rules by driving herself to Walmart for a hair cut and to shop and then driving herself to the oncologist. She got a stern talking to by management and is quarantined for 14 days. She insists she is in "independent living" and should be able to do whatever she wants to do. We have been shopping for her and depositing checks for her throughout COVID but now she is on her own as she wants to be. My husband is POA but, legally, there is only so much we can do to influence her life and decisions. We have consulted with our attorney and there is little we can do. I would suggest seeing an attorney and getting some legal guidance on the situation. Best of luck to you! This is a stressful situation to be in. I recently promised my own kids that I would NEVER do this to them!
disgustedtoo Aug 2020
Most of us, knowing what we now know, swear we won't do this, but dementia changes everything! Several times my mother mentioned having to clear/clean out in case she ever has to "get outta here." When I asked what that meant, she said AL. So, it was in HER plans to move to AL if/when the time came and she felt it necessary.

Enter dementia. In her mind, she was fine, she was independent, she could cook. In reality, nope. She lived alone and I didn't interfere or go there much (was still working full time.) When we had to take the car away, I had to start taking her shopping and/or provide supplies. Gradually it became evident that she was NOT cooking, even though she was buying the meats and veggies to do so. I didn't spend time checking her place, so it wasn't until after she moved that I found out how much cleaning she wasn't doing, accidents she'd had and stuff (usually just trash) stuck in drawers, things put away and forgotten, so she would ask for more... The worst was finding that not only was every closet and drawer stuffed full of clothes, but so was every bag, tote, hope chest and FIVE large porta-closets - all clothes she bought over the years and saved. Some still had tags on it! Shoes and handbags to match everything! Costume jewelry too. Augh!

So, rather than just promise the kids, perhaps you should visit an attorney and have all your documents in place, including your wishes for if/when you become incompetent...
AlvaDeer Aug 2020
As far as Estate, are we speaking of the 30,000 that M. has in the bank? Because quite honestly you won't have any estate to deal with there. The heir will be appointed executor easily and I think no filing need be done on an estate of that size. And end of life in any case will likely eat up that much in only a few months.
You will, of course, come to the point that M. HAS TO be placed. Right now, even in her early (undiagnosed?) dementia, she can fend for herself I am assuming, can order in her own food? You have given us so much information here, but I guess it is never enough. But as to placement, M. will soon be more a danger to herself living alone than she is now.
And I just came back to edit. I read some responses. I hope that your wife will look at these. There is such good advice and personal experience. Know you are not alone. Take care of yourselves.
To be frank, and given the history, I would ask the State to assume guardianship and diagnosis of M., who is appoaching need for placement for her own safety and who clearly won't accept that from you.
Your wife was apparently raised by this woman, who had issues of meanness early on, and likely she was trained in the behavior she still does, which is to serve with not even a thank you on the horizon.
I believe that family counseling for you, your wife, and you child is the only answer. Your wife needs boundaries she can live within for her own protection. They cannot be dictated by you, because your wife is being then dictated to by both YOU and by her own Mother. This leaves her further torn, confused and ridden with that good old word we see on this forum every single day ...."guilt".
I think mistakes have been made, and number one was to have Mom moved to you where you are daily faced with the mess she has made of her life. Let the state be her guardian, which it would be had she never given birth to your dear wife.
You are kind, caring and good at explaining what seems an impossible situation. Let your wife know that you will get thru this somehow together, and that you care for and treasure her; she has had likely little enough of that. Tell her that she cannot "fix" what her Mom has done with her own life and relationships. Suggest you see a licensed Social Worker who works with life change issues, to make your way through the best you can.
This must be heartbreaking for you to see for your wife, as it is heartbreaking for her to see for her Mom. It will be a learning experience for your daughter on life consequences, and what to do when there is quite honestly nothing to be done.

Mepowers Aug 2020
Yes to all the legal advice here. I have been in your wife’s situation and this story could be my story. I’m an only child. I called adult protective services twice and made sure I gave my name and documented my calls. I cut off contact and financial support. I had to wait until she declined to a point where she was sent to the hospital and a doctor recognized her dementia. She can no longer care for herself at all. I chose to place her in an assisted living because even with dementia she is toxic. And I feel no guilt. Sifting through her finances is a full time frustrating job. I have had to approach this as “I am just the signatory case manager” and not a daughter. I consulted with an elder care attorney to insure I was doing everything right. You can request a state guardian if it’s all too much for your wife. On the plus side, you sound like a wonderful spouse! You are doing a wonderful thing standing by your wife’s side in all this!
Monica19815 Aug 2020
SO many children..especially those who are an only child...are so afraid and guilt ridden to walk away from a toxic elderly parent and accept being abused, used and exhausted by a parent who will never change. When my 93 year old MIL told my only child husband..who is almost 70 years old himself...to stay out of her business...he happily granted her wish and has walked away TOTALLY. She had a studio apt in an "independent living" facility and is a narcissist and a liar. She still drives and has broken the COVID rules by driving herself to go shopping, have her hair done and go to doctor appts. Her community can provide her safe transportation but she is refusing that and is now quarantined. My husband is now free to live his life until a major crisis happens and he legally must step in as POA.
elaine1962 Aug 2020
I am so sorry you are going through this with your MIL. I am going through it with my 96 year old mother who lives in her hoarded house all by herself. Since she is competent and has her mind, I am told by doctors, APS, social workers, hospitals, that there is nothing that I can do to make her go to a nursing home or any other facility. I also can’t call for her to have services in her house. Why? Because she doesn’t want any help!! I’m still waiting for the crises to happen. There is nothing you can do until MIL falls, has a stroke . Just wait for the crises. I’m still waiting. I’ve been waiting for the crises for a couple of years now. She lives in her hoarded house and won’t bathe or wash her hair. I only go to her house once a week and my son goes over 3 times a week to bring her groceries, bring in mail, take out garbage, etc. You can’t help someone who won’t help themselves. Your MIL could easily live to be 100. If she still has her mind there is nothing you can do. If she has dementia you can get guardianship of her and then have her sent to a facility. ONLY if she has dementia. The test they give them are questions like what is your name? When is your birthday, who is the president? What are your children’s names? Can MIL do that? If so, leave her alone. Leave her be. Visit once a week to give her mail, groceries, take out garbage or hire someone to do the basics. Other than that, leave her alone and live your lives. She chose to live hers. You can’t make anyone leave there own home. There are people that you can call to sort out her house when she passes. You don’t have to clean her house. Other people on this site can tell you who to call to sort out her house when she passes. But you do not have to do it. I will be calling someone to clean out my mothers hoarded mess. The only thing I want in the house are some pictures and photo albums. Pictures of my mom during happier times. ESTATE LIQUIDATOR is who you call to clean out MILs house.

MargaretMcKen Aug 2020
This may be difficult advice, and perhaps not to be expected from a long term feminist lawyer like me. Your wife is in real difficulty, from her nice nature, her life time conditioning, and from what society says about daughters doing the right thing by their mothers. The kindest thing you could do for your wife may well be to ask her to agree to you making the decisions, for her sake, your sake, and for the sake of your daughter and your marriage. If she trusts you, this may come as a huge relief to her. She can tell her mother that you are calling the shots.

You then make sensible decisions, with the courage to carry the can about them. Your daughter may well be on your side, and be a good sounding post about what is the best decision. In particular you stop the family, including your wife, continue with the propping up that enables your MIL to believe wrongly that she is independent. If MIL abuses your wife about it, her answer is that you insist, and she is not willing to jeopardise her marriage. She can quote scripture about ‘forsaking all others’, if that matters in your family dynamics.

Something has to change, and this could be a way to make it happen. Yes, sometimes I am very happy for my DH to make the decisions that are just too hard for me, notwithstanding all my feminist principles. (And sometimes it goes the other way too, me for him. We both understand when too many things get in the way of good decisions)

Lots of love to you and your family, Margaret.

elaine1962 Aug 2020
I’m with you Monica19815, I told my kids the same thing. I would not do this to them!!! Wow!! Your mom is still driving at 93? My mom is 96 and believe me she would still be driving if her 20 year old car didn’t die 4 years ago. She wanted to buy a new car but I wouldn’t co-sign and she gambled all her money away so she couldn’t afford ANY car!! If they are competent, leave them be. There is nothing you can do about it. They are free to do as they please. Stay out of it. Talk to an elder lawyer.
disgustedtoo Aug 2020
See my reply to Monica19815.... Telling and ensuring are different animals... Your case is a bit different, since your mother has been deemed "competent"
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