I've found in my experience it's best to just ignore narcissists. Treat them like they aren't even there. If they keep talking, leave the room. There's nothing a narcissist hates more than being ignored. But they love an audience so if you stop listening maybe, just maybe they'll go bug someone else.
I've noticed over the last decade among friends and acquaintances: those that are left with a dad are able to have a normal life and normal parent relationship. Those that are left with a mom tend to be miserable, and the mom's demands ruin family relationship(s). Just my experience. I have a mom (trouble). My husband has his dad, who is 83 and still the same man I met 40 years ago.
Mystery Shopper, I had to laugh at your free movies comment. When my father first left his home it was thought to only be for rehab but then it all snowballed. I had been paying his tv bill for about 6 months and he had a fit. I told him I'd cancel it and he said no, just stop paying it since I'm not there to watch. He said when he got home he'd call them and get a credit for all the months I paid since he wasn't home to watch. I said they didn't care if he'd been there to watch or not, but of course I just didn't know what I was talking about. I said if I stop paying they will cancel it and turn you into collections. Nope, not in his world would they do that. Nearly 2 years later now, and he is still fussing about how they owe him that money and is mad I cancelled and returned his equipment to the provider. He seriously believes that since he wasn't available to use the service, he could have kept it free of charge. I tell him often they aren't going to give him all that money back and he said they might not refund him, but he is sure when he is back home they will give him those 6 months back for future viewing free of charge.
No. Narcissistic men are more likely to have acquired enmeshed wives or partners instead, and to have replaced them when widowed or divorced.
I love almost all my clients, and if I can't quite manage that I hold tight to my professional hat, but the handful I have struggled with are the lately widowed narcissistic men who receive all sympathy for their loss but in fact have no thought in their heads but self-pity and the urgent need to recruit to the vacancy. It's especially stomach-turning when there are bereaved adult children on the scene.
As my Irish co-worker said when we compared notes about one: "my, but he's a rascal isn't he!"
Countrymouse don't you think that saying "my, but he's a rascal isn't he" is amost a way of minimizing what a jerk he is. What I mean is don't you think men are let off the hook so to speak when they act like a**holes when women are not? Saying he's a "good ole boy" or "oh, (fill in name) is just sewing his wild oats" etc. etc.
For instance when a man in the workplace is overbearing and critical, bullying etc. people say he's strong and a good manager whereas a women is just a "bitch" Kind of the old double standard.
Aren't husbands with narcissistic wives enmeshed too? Saying narcissistic men have enmeshed partners and not women is just another way of diminishing women isn't it?
Please don't view my comments as criticism of you Countrymouse. You know I love you. I'm just wanting to get my point of view out there.
I'm male, five foot 8 or so and have never weighed more than 185 lbs my entire life. I now weigh around 165 and one time when I was thinner and my dad was alive, he asked me not to go into a store with him because he didn't want anyone to think that I was his son because I was "so fat and ugly". So father can just be as narcissistic as women.
People are always throwing around a behavior disorder label on people. It's to diminish the social status of whoever they are complaining about. To turn the other into a less than human monster and the complainer into a victim. The funny part is that many of the posts labeling the "other" as a narcissist, come off as narcissists. lol As to gender....Women tend to live longer. So, the majority of complaints about the aged would naturally be against women.
Cashew, may I ask you a question? Have you ever been the victim of an actual narcissist? I don't mean a person who is selfish or has some traits. I mean a genuine narcissist. I think they are pretty rare to be honest. I agree with you to an extent. I think we use the term pretty liberally in society. But when you come into contact with an actual narcissist you know it. My husband and his sister have been victims of their father's abuse for years. Mental, emotional, verbal, physical. He spent years degrading them. Brainwashing them. Training them that they were put on this earth to take care of his needs and they were not important. Their mother enabled him. He treats his grandchildren like crap and yet tells anyone who will listen that it's the other way around. The grands do not talk to him. NONE of them except if they have to. He will tell people that we do nothing to help him while we are literally helping him. I have never in my life met anyone like him. There is a huge distinction between his behavior and anyone else I know. So yes to your point our society is very free with the term. But there are actually true narcissistic individuals in our society and living with and caring for those individuals is a very special kind of hell because their caregivers have often been conditioned to think that their entire job in life is to provide care for them. It is a vicious cycle and the loved ones of true narcissists are always looking for something that their loved one will never be able to give them. It is incredibly sad for me to watch my husband and his sister, even knowing that their dad is not capable of showing love or compassion, to still bend over backwards to try to earn his love. Instead of being able to truly process that they are deserving of it, he is still in their heads enough that they still think it is somehow their fault. So please recognize that yes, while we as a society are pretty liberal with throwing the word around, there genuinely are victims out there who are trying to recover from a lifetime of narcissist covert and sometimes not so covert abuse at the hands of someone who is supposed to love them. Its not always just about what's on the surface and what people see from the outside. Narcs are often experts at pulling the wool over people's eyes for years and managing their family and controlling the narrative to make themselves look perfect to the outside world. It's a house of cards.
Narcissist is a very popular term here, but I'd say 99.9% of the diagnoses are likely incorrect.
People get more self-centered as they age and become more infirm. If they tended toward being self-centered before they were old and infirm, then I guess it makes sense they'd become more so as they age.
My very wise dad once said to me that the strongest personality trait in a person seems to get magnified as they age. He was a very kind man, and as he aged, he became even kinder and more considerate. My mom had a tendency to speak her mind, and as she aged (and with the loss of all filters thanks to dementia), well, she REALLY would speak her mind. She wasn't mean, but she said anything that popped into her head.
I'd say if your dad was self-centered before, he'll be more so now. Doesn't make him a narcissist.
I completely agree. I rarely use the term narcissist to describe anyone anymore. I think once you have encountered a true narcissist you don't use the term to describe other individuals lightly period because you recognize the difference pretty quickly. My grandmother has some pretty solid TRAITS that are getting worse as she ages, but I would never lump her in with my FIL in a million years. I can safely say that among the people I know in real life, my FIL is the only individual I would ever label as a narcissist. And he has clearly been this way his entire life. His wife spent a lot of energy covering up his behavior and limiting my exposure and the grandchildren's exposure while she was alive. It's clear now that my husband and his sister have blocked and repressed a massive portion of their childhood abuse at his hands and it's coming to light now that we have all become his caregivers. And to your point, his behavior is getting worse because he has alienated nearly everyone else in his entire world now. And I agree 100% there is a difference between a self-centered individual and a narcissist.
My hubs resembles some of these remarks I've read. I never ever thought he was a narcissist, just self-centered due to being horribly spoiled all his life but now I'm wondering.
The only official, diagnosed narcissist I know is a male relative. I've never met anyone like him. Coddled and worshiped by his mother. Taught that others are at his beck and call. Others are always wrong. I once was talking about music with him and I distinctly remembered a particular song being from 1987. He insisted I was wrong - even though I showed him the copyright date (1987). If he needs to talk, everyone stops what they are doing and indulges him. If someone else needs to talk, he will give them MAYBE 3 mins and then he's off changing the subject. During a family crisis that I handled, I sent out a mass update to everyone to let them know what had happened and what I did about it. Somehow, believe it or not, he did not read it and then blamed me that he "didn't see it" and then expected me to start at the beginning and tell the whole story again - just for him. He then went on to inquire as to why I had also not handled XYZ for the same situation. If he's trying to reach someone, he will harass them via phone, text, voice mail, email, etc until they talk to him. No understanding that people have other things to do besides wait for him to contact them. He bulldozes over his spouse and children. Cocky and arrogant with nothing of substance to back it up. He was not diagnosed until his 30's. And what a path of destruction he caused up to that point. And, you guessed it, being diagnosed did not change him much.
Enjoying these shared thoughts and personal situations. Thanks to all. So would feeling as if you and you alone know the right way, right answer, and everyone else is an idiot, fall in with narcs? I'm smarter than the dr, lawyer, priest, and most likely even Jesus? Always a victim at the same time? If they realize they appear in the wrong, it's not from anything they did or didn't do, but a result of someone else's stupidity? Are these too narc traits, or simply an a@@hole?
I have known a lot of selfish people, a lot of people that always thought they were smarter, always thought they were right. I think a lot of people have narcissistic TRAITS without being a true narcissist to your point. But also to your point - a true narcissist - and I don't use that term lightly - are victims - they are NEVER wrong. If something they DO is wrong it is ALWAYS someone else's fault. ALWAYS. They have zero accountability. They have no ability to see where they could have been responsible for the action whatsoever. To give you an idea - my FIL - a very religious man - did indeed take credit on multiple occasions for what was happening in our church services- it was HIS presence at the alter praying for people and not the presence of the LORD that was having the impact. Had he himself not been praying for those people - they would NOT have had the experience they had. Also my FIL - the person at his TV and internet service provider PROMISED him free movie channels for LIFE - it was not HIS fault he did not listen to them mind you - HE wanted free movie channels for life so that must have been what they said and how dare they mislead an old man and use such sketchy business practices (mind you when the tape was replayed the representative said 3 months just as the family figured they did and my FIL REPEATED it back to him and agreed to it and we knew that because he originally TOLD us that it was 3 months when he signed up for it, but when his bill went up he swore up down, left and right that they had promised him a special deal that he got movies for free for the rest of his life - we talked about how that didn't make any good business sense - appealed to the long time salesman in him - and he agreed but said it was a SPECIAL DEAL JUST FOR HIM!!) Narcissists want the best things all the time - but they want to make sure you know they have the best things -the most expensive things and they make sure that everyone knows it. But I think the big key difference between narcissists and people who are selfish - and maybe I'm wrong - but most of the people that I know that just selfish are like this - selfish people seem to have an off button. Most of them DO seem to hit a point where they realize that they have overstepped. Narcs DO NOT have an off button. They are always in it for themselves. They DO NOT have the capacity to feel empathy. They do not have the capacity to concern themselves with the needs of others, they are so consumed with having their own needs met. It's not a situation where they prioritize their needs over yours. They literally don't even recognize you have needs. And I think that is a major difference between having traits and being a full blown narcissist. The ability to live in our reality.
How much time do you have? The only true narcissist I have ever known is my FIL. His early life consisted of very confusing polarized parents- a raging abusive alcoholic father who was sure to tell him how useless and worthless he was - and his (per him) saintly mother who worshipped the ground he walked on and never allowed him to lift a finger to do a thing. Add to this mix his grandmother who thought he was the second coming and you had a recipe for disaster. He was raised to believe that women were put on earth to do nothing more than facilitate the needs of men. His mother saw to it that his sisters also waited on him. MIL did nothing to retrain him of his belief that women were on earth to meet a man's needs, although she was very vocal about being miserable about it. He was mentally, emotionally, verbally and physically abusive of his children. There are entire chunks of their childhood they have blocked out. But they are incredibly conditioned to jump when he says jump. It has taken them both a long time to learn they can say no. Not just can but should. His go to reaction is anger and yelling because he physically can't do anything to them now. But you can still see both of them physically recoil. His grandchildren all adults refuse to speak to him. Alot of this came to light when MIL passed away. For many years she covered it very well. It was a lot of short happy family gatherings for dinner or holidays with showtiming. But when she died and as his circle of supply has shrunk he has become mean and belligerent until he is left with just the adult children he abused and their spouses and he no longer has control. The facade has fallen.
I often wonder if one or both of HIS parents were narcissists? Or if his mother and grandmother were just super enablers? His wife, my MIL was an odd combo. She was the perfect doting wife in public, but in private, though she waited on him hand and foot furthering his sexist agenda, she would rip into him like it was her job too, so I can't fully call her an enabler entirely either. He is definitely a created narcissist, from someone of very low self esteem by someone who wanted to counteract the other parent's damage but she went too far and created a monster and he believes now that he is the end all be all and everyone on earth is here expressly to fulfill his needs. Everything is on his time, his way, no one else matters. It is so beyond selfishness I can't even explain it. But at the heart of it, he lives in a different reality than we do. Narcs of any variety are definitely a breed apart.
I think its because of our culture. Maybe not so much now, because labels have been put on disorders we really didn't realize were disorders 50 or more years ago. Men were the head of households. A wife usually didn't go against what a husband said no matter how unreasonable it was. Woman were second hand citizens. Went from Dads house right into Husbands. Narcissists tend to pick partners they can manipulate. So, I think that personality may have been looked at as a strong man. A Narcissistic woman would pick a man she could manipulate. It really surprises me when Narcissists marry each other. Whose to manipulate? I guess the poor kids.
So what I am trying to say is that at one time the man was looked at as being able to control his wife the woman was seen as a b**** and the husband hen pecked.
I have noticed that as well. I am not 100% certain that my father was a narcissist. I think if he was he was borderline although my mother and a psychiatrist believed that either he was or at least had sting leanings towards that. It was hard to tell since he was definitely bipolar (aka manic depressive). I have tried looking up books, videos etc on growing up with a narcissistic father and like you find pretty much only articles on narcissistic mothers or worse both parents being a narcissist (how horrible that would and must be). It certainly does affect a person. I know it affected my brother, my mother and myself all differently. Sadly my father was jealous of my brother for taking attention away from my father by my mother. So he would bully him. My brothers way of protecting himself was to essentially hide by being quiet and almost unseen. I assume because I was youngest I was able to observe so I could be labelled the “golden child”. But I don’t feel like I truly was. It was just that my hobby was reading my father and his moods and catering to them to keep him as calm and happy as possible so the house would be as peaceful as possible. So I sort worked as my fathers assistant keeping him as happy as possible for my and the family’s sake. I cannot tell you exactly how being a “daddy’s girl” to a narcissist/manic depressive has affected me but I am sure it is why I am perpetually single and feel mostly worthless (sorry sounds so woe is me I don’t mean to), I probably either don’t trust men or don’t trust that I will attract and be attracted to a good person since I knew how to essentially manipulate my father and his moods so well, it is all I know so I would probably look for that. Anyway long babbling little story about me (sorry ironic that I am speaking all about myself when discussing narcissistic fathers. So ironic. I pray I did not emulate that from him). Basically I too have had a really hard time find info on being raised with a narcissistic father. Mostly mother’s. Perhaps a lot of the narcissistic fathers were too narcissistic and left the families since the mothers were not giving them all their attention and love. Maybe they bailed so there are fewer who are brought up bu narcissistic fathers since they may take off and focus on their lives instead of being a parent and focusing on someone else? I don’t know. I hope you can find some info to help you. On YouTube there are a lot of vidéos from psychiatrists who speak about the different types family dynamics that occur in families with a narcissistic parent. They don’t seem to truly specify father or mother although I am sure it is a very different impact on a child. Also the way being raised by a narcissistic mother would be different to. A daughter then a son etc. Again I hope you can find what you are looking for and yes I have noticed the focus seems to be on narcissistic mothers. Not sure if it affects women more then men?? Interesting question.
Good question. I wonder if men with narc traits have a higher rate of absence from their children's lives?
Personalities are just part of why a marriage/union breaks down of course.. so many other factors, financial, illness, circumstance, addictions. People can just change over time too.
Many men (as many women) are driven & competitive. Some call this confident - others will call it arrogance. So what one calls selfish - others could call narcissistic.
A dx of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is probably quite rare... but I'm sure there are many out there with no diagnosis!
I have no idea if NPD is more likely in men or women. But personally, I see (in my workplace) a mixture of elder people. A big range of sweet, kind or selfish, entitled across both men & women. I meet some very selfish people who totally expect & assume their adults kids (or anyone within eye-sight) are their servants.
I doubt this is true NPD. More like the combination of dementia or other brain changes. I think of it as childlike. A return to infantile thinking, when their needs are their entire world & they expect the world to provide.
Fedup, if that is where your Dad is? Expecting you, or the world to turn to his command...? let the world keep on turning...
Shrug. Ask what he will do about his latest problem. Say something bland. "OK you do that". Do nothing about it.
Most people love Dad think he is such a charming man with so many entertaining stories to tell.
I was married to one too.
I am guessing that many of us here were raised in a time when Dad's did not do too much hands on parenting. With my Dad he put on a show in public of being a Dad, but at home be was behind a news paper, watching TV or otherwise unavailable.
The other family dynamic that played out in many homes was Dad rules the roost, many of us for generations were afraid of our fathers. No matter how unreasonable the rules we asked how high when told to jump.
I still have both parents, Mum is 87 and Dad 92. They divorced about 34 years ago and both had new partners in their lives. Many Dad's died at much younger ages, after the kids had moved out and before the parents needed care.
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I love almost all my clients, and if I can't quite manage that I hold tight to my professional hat, but the handful I have struggled with are the lately widowed narcissistic men who receive all sympathy for their loss but in fact have no thought in their heads but self-pity and the urgent need to recruit to the vacancy. It's especially stomach-turning when there are bereaved adult children on the scene.
As my Irish co-worker said when we compared notes about one: "my, but he's a rascal isn't he!"
For instance when a man in the workplace is overbearing and critical, bullying etc. people say he's strong and a good manager whereas a women is just a "bitch" Kind of the old double standard.
Aren't husbands with narcissistic wives enmeshed too? Saying narcissistic men have enmeshed partners and not women is just another way of diminishing women isn't it?
Please don't view my comments as criticism of you Countrymouse. You know I love you. I'm just wanting to get my point of view out there.
The funny part is that many of the posts labeling the "other" as a narcissist, come off as narcissists. lol
As to gender....Women tend to live longer. So, the majority of complaints about the aged would naturally be against women.
But when you come into contact with an actual narcissist you know it. My husband and his sister have been victims of their father's abuse for years. Mental, emotional, verbal, physical. He spent years degrading them. Brainwashing them. Training them that they were put on this earth to take care of his needs and they were not important. Their mother enabled him. He treats his grandchildren like crap and yet tells anyone who will listen that it's the other way around. The grands do not talk to him. NONE of them except if they have to. He will tell people that we do nothing to help him while we are literally helping him. I have never in my life met anyone like him. There is a huge distinction between his behavior and anyone else I know.
So yes to your point our society is very free with the term. But there are actually true narcissistic individuals in our society and living with and caring for those individuals is a very special kind of hell because their caregivers have often been conditioned to think that their entire job in life is to provide care for them. It is a vicious cycle and the loved ones of true narcissists are always looking for something that their loved one will never be able to give them.
It is incredibly sad for me to watch my husband and his sister, even knowing that their dad is not capable of showing love or compassion, to still bend over backwards to try to earn his love. Instead of being able to truly process that they are deserving of it, he is still in their heads enough that they still think it is somehow their fault.
So please recognize that yes, while we as a society are pretty liberal with throwing the word around, there genuinely are victims out there who are trying to recover from a lifetime of narcissist covert and sometimes not so covert abuse at the hands of someone who is supposed to love them. Its not always just about what's on the surface and what people see from the outside. Narcs are often experts at pulling the wool over people's eyes for years and managing their family and controlling the narrative to make themselves look perfect to the outside world. It's a house of cards.
People get more self-centered as they age and become more infirm. If they tended toward being self-centered before they were old and infirm, then I guess it makes sense they'd become more so as they age.
My very wise dad once said to me that the strongest personality trait in a person seems to get magnified as they age. He was a very kind man, and as he aged, he became even kinder and more considerate. My mom had a tendency to speak her mind, and as she aged (and with the loss of all filters thanks to dementia), well, she REALLY would speak her mind. She wasn't mean, but she said anything that popped into her head.
I'd say if your dad was self-centered before, he'll be more so now. Doesn't make him a narcissist.
And I agree 100% there is a difference between a self-centered individual and a narcissist.
Hmm..............
To give you an idea - my FIL - a very religious man - did indeed take credit on multiple occasions for what was happening in our church services- it was HIS presence at the alter praying for people and not the presence of the LORD that was having the impact. Had he himself not been praying for those people - they would NOT have had the experience they had. Also my FIL - the person at his TV and internet service provider PROMISED him free movie channels for LIFE - it was not HIS fault he did not listen to them mind you - HE wanted free movie channels for life so that must have been what they said and how dare they mislead an old man and use such sketchy business practices (mind you when the tape was replayed the representative said 3 months just as the family figured they did and my FIL REPEATED it back to him and agreed to it and we knew that because he originally TOLD us that it was 3 months when he signed up for it, but when his bill went up he swore up down, left and right that they had promised him a special deal that he got movies for free for the rest of his life - we talked about how that didn't make any good business sense - appealed to the long time salesman in him - and he agreed but said it was a SPECIAL DEAL JUST FOR HIM!!)
Narcissists want the best things all the time - but they want to make sure you know they have the best things -the most expensive things and they make sure that everyone knows it.
But I think the big key difference between narcissists and people who are selfish - and maybe I'm wrong - but most of the people that I know that just selfish are like this - selfish people seem to have an off button. Most of them DO seem to hit a point where they realize that they have overstepped. Narcs DO NOT have an off button. They are always in it for themselves. They DO NOT have the capacity to feel empathy. They do not have the capacity to concern themselves with the needs of others, they are so consumed with having their own needs met. It's not a situation where they prioritize their needs over yours. They literally don't even recognize you have needs.
And I think that is a major difference between having traits and being a full blown narcissist. The ability to live in our reality.
He was mentally, emotionally, verbally and physically abusive of his children. There are entire chunks of their childhood they have blocked out. But they are incredibly conditioned to jump when he says jump. It has taken them both a long time to learn they can say no. Not just can but should. His go to reaction is anger and yelling because he physically can't do anything to them now. But you can still see both of them physically recoil. His grandchildren all adults refuse to speak to him. Alot of this came to light when MIL passed away. For many years she covered it very well. It was a lot of short happy family gatherings for dinner or holidays with showtiming. But when she died and as his circle of supply has shrunk he has become mean and belligerent until he is left with just the adult children he abused and their spouses and he no longer has control. The facade has fallen.
I often wonder if one or both of HIS parents were narcissists? Or if his mother and grandmother were just super enablers? His wife, my MIL was an odd combo. She was the perfect doting wife in public, but in private, though she waited on him hand and foot furthering his sexist agenda, she would rip into him like it was her job too, so I can't fully call her an enabler entirely either.
He is definitely a created narcissist, from someone of very low self esteem by someone who wanted to counteract the other parent's damage but she went too far and created a monster and he believes now that he is the end all be all and everyone on earth is here expressly to fulfill his needs. Everything is on his time, his way, no one else matters. It is so beyond selfishness I can't even explain it. But at the heart of it, he lives in a different reality than we do.
Narcs of any variety are definitely a breed apart.
So what I am trying to say is that at one time the man was looked at as being able to control his wife the woman was seen as a b**** and the husband hen pecked.
Personalities are just part of why a marriage/union breaks down of course.. so many other factors, financial, illness, circumstance, addictions. People can just change over time too.
Many men (as many women) are driven & competitive. Some call this confident - others will call it arrogance. So what one calls selfish - others could call narcissistic.
A dx of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is probably quite rare... but I'm sure there are many out there with no diagnosis!
I have no idea if NPD is more likely in men or women. But personally, I see (in my workplace) a mixture of elder people. A big range of sweet, kind or selfish, entitled across both men & women. I meet some very selfish people who totally expect & assume their adults kids (or anyone within eye-sight) are their servants.
I doubt this is true NPD. More like the combination of dementia or other brain changes. I think of it as childlike. A return to infantile thinking, when their needs are their entire world & they expect the world to provide.
Fedup, if that is where your Dad is? Expecting you, or the world to turn to his command...? let the world keep on turning...
Shrug. Ask what he will do about his latest problem. Say something bland. "OK you do that". Do nothing about it.
Most people love Dad think he is such a charming man with so many entertaining stories to tell.
I was married to one too.
I am guessing that many of us here were raised in a time when Dad's did not do too much hands on parenting. With my Dad he put on a show in public of being a Dad, but at home be was behind a news paper, watching TV or otherwise unavailable.
The other family dynamic that played out in many homes was Dad rules the roost, many of us for generations were afraid of our fathers. No matter how unreasonable the rules we asked how high when told to jump.
I still have both parents, Mum is 87 and Dad 92. They divorced about 34 years ago and both had new partners in their lives. Many Dad's died at much younger ages, after the kids had moved out and before the parents needed care.