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Aedan0620 Asked January 19, 2024

Can I get into trouble if my clients are hurt while I'm not there?

I care for a mother daughter duo. Daughter has special needs, but is high functioning. Nom has Parkinson's. She's in a wheelchair, extensive one-assist. I care for them from 8am-8pm, but they are alone at night. Mom recently almost fell in the bathroom. If I had not been there she would have fallen face first into the glass shower door. She wouldn't even have been able to protect her face or break her fall since both her hands were pulling up her depends. Months before this I came in at 8am one morning and found on the floor by her bed.. she missed the edge if the bed sitting down after a bathroom trip. She was sitting on the wood floor like that from 4am until 8 when I arrived. I have asked if she would have a grab bar installed, she said no. I asked her to order more absorbent overnight depends so she's not making multiple trips alone at night to the bathroom, she said no. I have asked her to wear life-alert at night, she said no. I've asked if we can schedule overnight care, she said no. As a long-time caregiver I know she needs the help round the clock. My question is if something happens at night while the girls are alone can the family, or anyone for that matter, come after me? I want to respect boundaries and rights but also protect myself, my license, and keep the ladies safe. Also her POA and Proxy are both her other daughter that lives 2 hours away and mom also has a sister that has been adamant about the ladies needing more care for the last 3 years.

JoAnn29 May 9, 2024
This post is from Jan. This OP has not returned since the day they posted.

AlvaDeer May 9, 2024
You have a license.
You then understand that makes you a mandated reporter.
You have described people you care for living in an unsafe environment for them.
Yes, you are liable to report this to APS. Legally AND morally.

Now, if you are asking if a court will accuse you of manslaughter and clap you into prison, no, probably they will not.

Here is my question for you. Why are you bringing this to a Forum of total strangers? Why have you not told the daughters there they require now 24/7 care? If you advise them in writing that they need this, and they do not comply, then they are responsible, but that doesn't remove your responsibility as mandated reporter. Write the daughters today. Tell them if you do not hear from them within a few weeks that you will have to report to APS. Let them know that firing you will not stop your report. And it should not.

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Geaton777 May 9, 2024
SInce Parkinsons often comes with dementia, I would be reporting all incidents to the PoA so that this person can be kept in the loop. The Mom is not making rational decisions in her best interests and is becoming a danger to herself. If I were the PoA I would want to know. And, I would NOT want to work in conditions where there are solutions for her safety but not put into place. Tell everything to the PoA in writing (email or text), that you did the right thing by suggesting safety equipment be installed and she refused, and is refusing all reasonable solutions to protect her and improve her quality of life. The PoA needs to know that the Mom may be having increased cognitive problems so that they can step in, if warranted.

FYI you may find out that there is no PoA, in which case you report it to APS to get her on their radar. If it turns out she doesn't have a PoA, she may at some point stop paying you. Lewy Body dementia is often part of Parkinsons, and unlike other forms of dementia, they can have hallucinations.

Beatty May 9, 2024
I've heard this played out many times.

Paid aides voice concerns, suggest increasing safety (eg falls alarm, grab rails, assistive equipment).
Client says no.

Risks grow. Concerns grow. Falls happen. Aide want to report. If with an agency, reports to a Superior. If not, maybe the next of kin or POA is able to be contacted directly. If not, APS is the next step. To locate NOK, POA (if one) get a wellbeing check done & go from there.

An Aide has duty of care for the hours they are present, certainly not for an overnight fall if not on shift.

I understand the concerns only too well as I AM the next of kin recently called to inform of concerns. From this position I can tell you I am THANKFUL for any such caring & diligent caregivers wanting to improve safety. I welcomed the call.
I also totally support an Aide calling EMS or APS as they see fit.

NeedHelpWithMom Jan 20, 2024
I feel for you. I cared for my mom who had Parkinson’s disease.

Falls are common due to rigidity and lack of balance. My mother’s doctor ordered home health so that she could work with a physical and occupational therapist. She also received an aide that assisted with bathing and helping her to get dressed. Mom’s strength and balance improved significantly.

Mom had one really bad fall which resulted in a hospital. The doctor ordered rehab treatment for her. Medicare paid for it. The hospital transferred her to the facility. She was able to participate even though she was in her 90’s and she did improve.

As far as evening bathroom trips go, I placed a bedside commode in her bedroom for her to use at night.

My mom did wear an alert necklace and I placed a lockbox with a code on it so the emergency workers could enter quickly. The alert necklace will detect falls and notify family members of the fall.

As you know, Parkinson’s disease is progressive and doesn’t have a cure so she will continue to deal with challenging symptoms. Some people, but not all will also get dementia along with their Parkinson’s disease. Mom did develop dementia later in her life.

Please speak with your client’s family about her needing more care. Falls are frightening and dangerous.

PT and OT helps if she is capable of doing the exercises that are designed specifically for Parkinson’s patients. My mom lived to be 95 years old and wasn’t bed ridden until the last few weeks of her life when she was in an end of life hospice facility.

Of course, the best solution for your clients would be for them to be in a facility where they could receive 24/7 care. Hopefully, the family will agree to this before a catastrophe occurs.

Wishing you and your clients all the best.
MiaMoor May 8, 2024
I second the use of a commode for night-time trips to the bathroom. Anything to help prevent falls when alone and sleepy.
Hothouseflower Jan 20, 2024
I would inform the POA what happened. It’s clear the woman cannot live independently anymore. It also seems that she has cognitive issues if she does not want to take steps to ensure her safety. The family needs to figure out placement for both but most especially placing the DD daughter.

JoAnn29 Jan 19, 2024
You are not responsible for your Clients when off duty. And as said Mom is your employer u answer to her. But now you are experiencing decline and the need for nighttime help, you contact the POA, which you did. Is there another family member. Someone needs to be made aware of Moms decline. I may contact the POA again. If she does not answer, leave a message if you can saying its the second time u have tried to contact her about Moms decline. Its OK if she does not call but you need to be in contact with someone. If she or another family member does not call u, you may need to call APS. Mom needs more help.

Parkinson's goes hand and hand with Dementia. Plans are needed to be made for special needs daughter, too.

strugglinson Jan 19, 2024
What is your protocol for if she does fall? Are you able to get her up by yourself?

Some caregivers (especially if agency employed) have a protocol to not try to lift the fallen person by themselves. It may require a 911 call in those scenarios.

Isthisrealyreal Jan 19, 2024
Aedan, if a person is not deemed incompetent by a judge they have every right to live how they choose.

If a person is not incapacitated the POA doesn't mean anything. You work for the mom and she gave you her friend as the contact, that doesn't make you liable for anything with the actual appointed POA.

Perhaps it is time to encourage your client to get a needs assessment to ensure both are getting the proper level of care they need.

You are not legally responsible for her choices or responsible to communicate with her POA, don't let anyone tell you that you are. The estranged daughter may be named as POA but, that doesn't make her responsible either if she hasn't accepted the appointment.

Best of luck getting these two the care they need, it sounds like a tough situation for you.

Aedan0620 Jan 19, 2024
Mother and daughter with special needs are the only two that live in the house. I am not the only caregiver in their employ but I am there the most. Monday- Friday from 8am-4pm. Thursday is my day off. Saturday and Sunday 8am-2pm. I also do dinner and bedtime twice a week from 4pm-8pm. There are 4 other caregivers that work for them. One is just a call me if someone is sick or on vacation. I won't speak for the other caregivers as to whether or not they are on/off the books. I do know they are all licensed. Mom signs the checks. I was lead to believe the neighbor/longtime friend was the poa. I document everything everytime I'm there. I reported finding her on the floor to who I was told was the poa and occasionally updated her on the ladies health and well-being. Recently mom has started to slow down and need more help.. she has parkinsons, she's declining. She's on a water pill and makes frequent trips to the bathroom at night while nobody's there. It's not a question if she's going to fall but when. It's going to happen if she continues to transfer alone at night. When I discussed this with who I believed was the poa it came out that she, in fact, is not. Mom and the daughter that is the real poa don't talk or communicate at all. Things are not friendly between them. I just got the daughter's contact info and reached out.. I haven't heard anything from her yet. My question is am I in jeopardy for working there all this time and not reporting to her actual poa??? When I started there 3 years ago they only had help in the mornings from 8-10 and evenings from 5-7. After about 2 years Mom started needing more help but she didn't want it.. so I went to the neighbor/friend and talked to her about it. Next day they want help from 8am-8pm... but the real poa was never contacted or told. The real one was never told when she fell. The real poa was never involved in any decision or anything before a few days ago! And I still don't know if she's even listened to the messages I left her. I didn't intentionally discuss things with the wrong person but I did... for 3 years!
AlvaDeer Jan 19, 2024
You are working for the MOM. You CAN work for the Mom but I would stop sharing info with other people. You should work for the mom who is the one directing and paying you. When you quit you quit by telling the MOM.
No one else has anything to do with any of this at this point.
If the Mom is incapacitated and you can't get good info on who is in charge you need to assume that NO ONE IS and call APS. You then need to quit unless you have solid proof someone has a POA to act for the mother and her child.

This sounds a horrid mess top to bottom. But as long as the mother is well enough to direct you and you wish to work for her then you are welcome to work for her. No one else has authority over a person who is legally competent. NO ONE.
She pays you. She directs you. She is your boss.
When there is no competent boss it's time to quit.
Grandma1954 Jan 19, 2024
You are responsible for them during the hours you are there.
If you work for an agency you should mention that they , in your opinion are not safe alone when no one is there.
If the mother is cognizant there is not much you can do other than to document what suggestions you have made and her response.
If Mom is cognizant and and you do not feel that they are safe you could report to APS (understand that she may be upset and you might lose your job)
If there is family you could express your concerns to the other family members.

MargaretMcKen Jan 19, 2024
The answer is ‘yes, you can get into all sorts of trouble’. Employment laws and income tax to start with. You may think that Mom and the rest of the family are the problem and are responsible, but you know all about it and are continuing to prop it up. You haven’t mentioned anyone having any insurance, either for accidents or for liability. And that’s accidents to any of you, and liability for any of you. What else do you need to know?
BurntCaregiver Jan 20, 2024
@Margaret

The OP claims to not be getting paid in cash and is legally employed. So no, not responsible for them when their paid shift is up.
AlvaDeer Jan 19, 2024
You are responsible for the hours you are hired for only. You are expected to follow safe practices.
You are not responsible for the hours you are NOT responsible for and not hired for.
Elders fall. We ALL fall. And often a fall of some kind or another is the "beginning of the end".

That said, it is up to the women you are caring for themselves, and their POA if they are not mentally competent, to assess needs. You already found a client on the floor. This is going to be more the norm than not when you do in home care. People, families, caregivers often find people on the floor.
Falls happen. No one is responsible for a fall.
If patient/client and POA are making decisions, that is their business to do.

If you feel incapable now of handling the clients due to any reason (your bad back, their weight, etc) it is time to quit the position. It sounds like getting tough now.

All falls you are made aware of are reportable to the POA.
If you feel a POA is neglectful I would take that to your agency.
If you feel a POA is not acting in a dangerous situation and you are not hired by an agency I suggest a call to APS telling them what you witness during the day, and that you feel they are unsafe alone when you are not there, let alone when you are.

As a caregiver I would be insured and bonded. It is important.
You aren't responsible, but that doesn't mean someone nefarious cannot bring a suit against you about ANYTHING they choose. Your insurance coverage, whether umbrella policy or whatever, provides you an attorney for defense.

Geaton777 Jan 19, 2024
If you are self-employed and there's no written contract then I'd be worried. You should have liability coverage yourself.

Another thing for YOU to consider is that the homeowner may not have enough liability coverage if YOU got hurt on the job (think about wrecking your back while you're picking client up off the floor, especially if it creates a permanent disability). Also, IF you're getting paid in cash there's no way to prove you got hurt "on the job".

The increasing care needs is a concern you bring up to the PoA (via email or text so that you have a dated record of when you voiced the concern). You now need to consider how long you want to work there if the PoA doesn't act fast enough.
Aedan0620 Jan 19, 2024
I am self-employed, I don't accept cash payments.. check or card only, and I pay my taxes. I was lead to believe the mother's lifelong best friend and neighbor (who I've also known personally for years)was the POA. I just found out a few days ago, AFTER 3 YEARS (!!!), that it's actually her other daughter that she's currently not on speaking terms with. I've been in Healthcare a long time but private care only for about 5 years now. I've never been in a situation where there was no clear plan.. I've never been lied to about who is a health care proxy, poa, or conservator before either... I did reach out to mom's sister as soon as I found out her poa wasn't who I thought. I just got the poa's contact info yesterday from her and haven't heard back the daughter yet. So I'm in unfamiliar territory here and find myself unsure of what my next step should be. I never thought about their liability insurance either so thank you! I'm insured myself but no clue about their end.
strugglinson Jan 19, 2024
who is officially in charge? Do either the mother or daughter have capacity? Is there someone else who is power of attorney?

If you think there are vulnerable, unsafe at some times of the day, you can call APS about it.

BurntCaregiver Jan 19, 2024
You do not work 12 hour days (8am to 8pm) if you are employed legally through a homecare agency.

I don't think so. I own a homecare agency and no agency is going to legally hire an hourly aide 12 hours a day because over 40 hours (when you're hourly) becomes overtime and gets overtime pay.

So, more likely you're working under-the-table and getting paid in cash. You should be more worried about getting in trouble for that. Or if you're working illegally in the U.S.

I'm sure you already know the answer to your question.
Aedan0620 Jan 19, 2024
I said I have daytime covered. Not that I work it all myself. I also never said I worked for or through an agency. I do pay my taxes and I am a legal US citizen. No I don't get paid in cash and I am legally self-employed. I have been a licensed caregiver for 20 years. Private care only the last 4 1/2. So no, I don't have the answer to my question. Maybe you shouldn't assume things you don't actually know.

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