How do you deal with a narcissistic mother?

Some people just want to talk and that alone helps them with the stresses they are experiencing. This is what is great about this site because it is open to all who want to share their experiences or to offer advice. For those who are experiencing tense pain in their relationship with a narcissistic personality disorder, I am copying and pasting some information that may help. We are all at different levels of healing from abusive childhoods, etc. and as a result some things don't register as a step that may be needed to get healthier. I have learned that all I can do offer information and if it provides insight for someone, great! If it doesn't then that is okay too. Here is the information I want to share: Codependency describes behaviors, thoughts and feelings that go beyond normal kinds of self-sacrifice or caretaking. For example parenting is a role that requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice and giving a child's needs a high priority, although a parent could nevertheless still be codependent towards their own children if the caretaking or parental sacrifice reached unhealthy or destructive levels.[2] Generally a parent who takes care of their own needs (emotional and physical) in a healthy way will be a better caretaker, whereas a codependent parent may be less effective, or may even do harm to a child.[2] Another way to look at it is that the needs of an infant are necessary but temporary whereas the needs of the codependent are constant.
People who are codependent often take on the role as a martyr; they constantly put others' needs before their own and in doing so forget to take care of themselves. This creates a sense that they are "needed"; they cannot stand the thought of being alone and no one needing them. Codependent people are constantly in search of acceptance. When it comes to arguments, codependent people also tend to set themselves up as the "victim". When they do stand up for themselves, they feel guilty.
Codependency does not refer to all caring behavior or feelings, but only those that are excessive to an unhealthy degree.[6] Indeed, from the standpoint of Attachment theory or Object relations theory, "to risk becoming dependent"[7] may be for the compulsively self-reliant a psychological advance, and "depending on a source outside oneself ... successful, or tolerable, dependence" [8] may be valorized accordingly.There is a lot of information on the Web regarding co-dependency and how to break the cycle. It is something I revisit from time to time because I always learn something new. For those who are interested, take a look and I hope it provides some insight as it has for me. Take care♥!

aberry..who is it that sounds like your own issue? At least you now realise you are not alone in all of this. I'm glad you were able to stand your ground and make a difference. I have done that over the years myself and gotten good results. But now my mother is 81, fragile and even though she refuses to admit it...incapable of taking care of herself. In just a few short weeks, her free transitional care (that is government care given to patients transitioning from hospital to their home) will be cut off and she will be left to her own devices again. No one coming in to shower her every day and get her breakfast. No physio. No extra privileges for care. She will revert back to having Home Care come in once a fortnight to clean house..that's it! Will she manage? Not on your nelly! I know dang well she won't. She's been lying on that bed for near on 3mths now and due to that she is as weak as a kitten. She refused to listen to all others advise regarding pushing herself beyond her limits to find a reasonable medium of health again. To be able to minumally care for herself. Her broken arm, now healed is useless after 3mths of non-use...muscle wastage etc. with no way of writing or going out to perform the tasks she needs to do to keep life going. Regardless of it being her own fault or not, the point is, at this stage she is incapable of taking care of herself and it will only worsen from here on in.
So I commisserate with you in your own dillemma, but at least there seems to be an option for you to be able to pull back on her help, where needed? Please correct me in my assumptions if I am wrong.

Cheers

Cattails...I can only answer for myself and as I said earlier, perhaps your the catalyst to my misery. I hear you and appreciate your input...for surely, if you didn't care, why would you keep bothering to come back here, read & reply to our stories? That's a caring & curious soul in my books.

Having said that...i also would love a shrink to visit here...and what a field day s/he would have with us lol. But hey sweet, there goes your logical assumption again. If I could do the 'walk' right now and wipe my hands of it all, I would gladly do so. Do you really, honestly, truly think that I could just walk away and leave my mother helplessly laying on her bed? I mean honestly! There is no one else to do the running round for her. To pay bills, keep finances going, grocery shop and poke a family face in every now & then to know she is still alive. There is no one else who would ring an ambulance in the middle of the night for her. For surely my sister is somewhat incapable. I took just one week's holiday up north. Just one week to get away. I set my sister up to phone her and check in on her more often then she does while away. Within 3 days my sister was ringing me up north and panicking because she couldn't reach mother on the phone What she expected me to do 500klms away? But, pull a rabbit out of the hat, I did and phoned her neighbours to go knock at her door. It turned out that her phone had gone out of order without her knowing. So much for my sister being able to care for her mother off her own back.
So you see, its fine to say "why not just stop doing what we are doing"...its a conscience thing. One cannot simply abandon a bed-ridden person without feeling the fires of hell upon them. Well at least, I can't! I am all she has and that's not martyrdom either. She has a surviving son and a daughter 17yrs my junior who both wish or cannot deal with the level of care she's needing. Apart from putting her in a nursing home which is not available due to resources & finances, there is no other option.
Theory sounds good, but practically it doesn't always work. I welcome any other thoughts you may have to offer any time. Thank you

Cheers

Shoot. I wrote a long post and then lost it. I can here the cheers. Yeah. But I won't give up and will at least put out a few sentences.

First of all, don't feel bad about you ganging up on me. I don't know how Libracat has kept from telling me to stuff it where the sun doesn't shine ages ago.

AS: You said my comments were logical, but when I wrote my post I felt very emotional. Do you think your kids feel emotion too, but you can't feel it. I think that can happen when you have been raised by someone who has never demonstrated empathy. Everything is about you and your mom. Nothing else raises to that level of importance.

Libracat, you are controlling, you just can't see it.

So what I am hearing is that you are all so dysfunctionally tied to your mothers that you can not separate and must continue in a path that you hate and one that makes you miserable. You must do this. You are moths drawn to the flame and there is no escape. I hear what you are saying, but it is so hard for me to take this in and understand it. It's a pathology of it's own and I'm not being logical when I say that it breaks my heart that you all suffer and keep going back for more.

I'm glad you have your own thread. I wish there was a shrink on this thread who specialized in daughters of NM's. Maybe that person could be a guiding light for you all.

AS: I'm not hurt that you don't want me as a friend. I can see what you mean and feel free to slap back anytime. I can take it. Nevertheless, I find myself wanting to save all of you. I don't know what that says about me. I guess I'm just a bleeding heart with a sharp tongue.

Sending you empathy. Cattails

I have the same problem with my mom in law.....they act the very same way. It hurts when you are doing your best and all you get is fussed at. My mom in law has dementia and parkinson and diabetes. Her dementia has gotten so bad, we are now paying her bills...but she does not care if she has money in the bank or not, she just charges things and expects it to be taken care of. She says she has been spoiled all her life and is going to be that way until the day she dies. She is rude to everyone, so nobody in the family will help with her care... OK..here goes...One day we went over to take her shopping for something she wanted (we take her out one day a week to eat and shop or whatever she wants...we were doing it 2 X's a week, but had to cut back, for the stress was to hard on us. Anyway, she started being ugly as soon as we got there, and she just kept on...I ususally do not get angry, I just go with the flow, but this day she was so ugly to my husband (her son)..that I threw my own fit. Told her, she was being ugly and I was not going to stand there anymore and listen to her abuse my husband , that does all he can for her, ...that we were NOT taking her anywhere that day and if we came the next week and she did the same...she would be left again.....since then she stops herself when she starts fussing. You have to set boundries or you will be walked all over.....they lived their lives, and you should not have to give up yours for them....who knows, tomorrow is not promised to any of us. If setting boundries does not work, then pull away without guilt....you did your best. If you pull away, you can still check on her, call etc, but even then set boundries....praying for you, for we know exactly where you are coming from...it is hard

As for my NM cattails and all....my own frustration is in not being able to help more where I see it can be useful for not only my mother, but to benefit us all. I've put aside other family (which has caused a huge rift for me I doubt I will ever be able to mend in my lifetime) to deal with my mother. She lives independantly (although shouldn't, but fierce independance wont allow her to do otherwise), and its not as if I spend every waking moment with her. In fact, I feel very guilty that I avoid every moment I can wangle to stay away from her because I just can't deal with her misery & woe. It's a strong and mournful energy that one can only spend a sprinkle of time near before wanting to turn tail and run as far away as possible.
Even though I love her and will step up where needed and always try to do the daughterly thing, deep down I wrestle with guilt over not doing so much more then I do. Guilt at not being able to make her life like she would want it to be (although I am well aware that that is NOT possible because a perfectionist is never happy). Unhappiness at putting aside those pieces of my own life I would like to pursue in favour of my mother's stuff. I dont get to see my little grandchildren which my son is not speaking to me for since xmas '11 because Ive chosen other things over giving time I dont have to them. I doubt he will ever understand because he is too logical and critical (unlike me) and refuses to see my own dillemma in a compassionate way to help me pave another way to spend just a tiny time with my grandchildren. All for my mother! I could be going over to my son's now, but instead I'm sitting here writing this and my mind is full of concern about dropping food over to my mother today and having to face the barrage of woe-is-me again...be it in person or over the phone...it keeps coming at me, while my sister has managed to avoid nearly all of it. She doesn't drive. Never got a license and has no husband now to run her around. So when she decides to catch a bus to NM's every 6mths, its such a delight to NM that I never hear the end of it. Even though my sister manages quite well to catch buses to the fair, concerts, events all over town all year round....according to my NM 'oh the poor thing. I told her not to worry about catching a bus. Its too much hassle she doesn't need' ...while in the back of her mind she's thinking...."K. will run around and pay my bills, bring me food, ring me to check on me, prop me up and listen to me wanting to top myself from this miserable horrible world ...Yep! she does a bl***y good job to and I can rely on her, so M. (sis) doesn't have to worry".
There's nought I can do about it all except to accept it gracously as I can and in silence towards the suffering of my other family members for feeling left out. I haven't enough hours in a week to make that difference so I have to deal with it and pay for the punishment in the hope that one day light will prevail.
I totally understand where others are coming from here. The whines sound insignificant to others, if not to those suffering it, but trust me....those whines are true and debilitating frustrations.
Thats why a site such as this has developed. Because the developer fully understands and has had the vision to create it to assist people like ourselves.

Yep! I drink to that! ...*runs away for a coffee fix*

:-D

libracat...I'm so sorry for your predicament my dear and am relieved to hear that you have such wonderful daughters to help lighten your load in these hard times.
Now I want you to listen carefully and read this part a few times over please!
STOP! STOP! what your doing to yourself right now. The house & its upheaval is not going anywhere. Forget about the mess. Forget about all those things you've got on your to-do list. Stop worrying about your mother for a while and focus on your own healing power. I want you to let it all go dearest. It will still be there when your better and back on your feet. Is there a time limit to get all this done, other then in your own mind? I doubt it. You broke your leg so that you might get that well-earned rest and side-step burn-out, which you managed quite well, I might add..lol..so just let go of that 'worry mind' and love every moment you are resting in the bed....because believe me...when your well and back on your feet, your gonna need every ounce of that energy build-up you can muster to slog through that long to-do list you have going..*wink*
The main thing is that underneath the surface of your worry, the priority stuff is still getting done to keep the household working okay. It may not be up to your own standards, but its getting done and that's all that needs to happen right now. Your NM seems ecstatic in her own little world of 'freedom' right now and regardless of you yelling orders from your bed, she will keep loving her freedom prowling while she can. She obviously feels in her own mind that she is chained down to your household regime...God love her! ....and there's nought you can do about it, so stop worrying about it. Let her go. If she refuses to look after herself then no one else can regardless of the efforts you've put in to keep her health going.
I once had a friend who told me her mother used to buy and stash biscuits in box under her bed so they (her children) didn't eat them. How sad is that?! I'll never forget what she told me because in that moment, I totally understood how that affected their lives. My point is, that we are born to these troubled souls to help them through life's challenges. We may feel we aren't doing our best, but when we learn to detach and step way back from it all, we can then see a whole new picture. One that shows us we are doing the best we can, which is far more then it would have been without us.........yes?
Your priority is to get that leg better so that you....and YOU ALONE...will have a future (with or without your NM) with good working legs. So focus on switching that worry-mind to visualising your leg healing, when it comes by. Do it each time that naughty mind steers you into worrying about everything else, and soon enough you will begin to quiet that inner voice and replace it with the healing energies upon yourself.
You don't need this extra frustration right now and there's no need for it. Haven't you ever noticed that when we lose someone, life goes on regardless? We try to control it all to feel as though we have a solid and secure footing. Well, we can't! Not all of it anyway. Right now you don't have a solid and secure footing. Your not meant to for good reason. So shush little one and get WELL while you get waited on hand-and-foot. It's your turn. Isn't the Universe kind? It seems to help where help is needed, even though we don't recognise it at times.
So there's my lecture..haha...well at least it makes long reading for you while you lounge back on your pillows, if nothing else... :)
xx

My dear cattails....It's not that we're ganging up on you, as I'm certain your heart is in the right place and that you care enough to wonder why all the fuss over our NM's where no fuss is needed? It's tough to understand unless one is living with it themselves. Fortunately, my NM doesn't sound near as bad to handle as libracat n playagrandma's do....thank God! Yes, she is a bull-headed, self-centred, frustrating person who seems never to have matured. God knows how she managed to get through her life so far, except for the kind ex-husbands/partner who have put up with her over those years and carried her along. But the proof is in the pudding, and while the rest of her family are happily settled with their partners, my NM is a lonely and bitter old woman who constantly whines at life's wanting to cause her misery. She just doesn't get it and neither do these lady's other mothers. They never will!
Your remarks make a lot of sense logically, but emotionally they do not, and there's the difference. We are all emotionally attached to these mothers and from somewhere deep inside, still love them regardless of their shannanigans. Even though they dish us up dirt for whatever we do, we still wish the best for them and try harder to break through that impenetrable barrier they've built solidly around themselves. Even though they give us crap, we keep going back for more because that's the stuff we're made of. And let me tell you this little one, if I were forced to make a choice between what support friends I would wish by my side, it would not include you...and believe me that remark is not meant to hurt you but to state that people like ourselves do not need logical friends by us, even though they can be the perfect ones to smack us in the faces and say "wake up you silly woman".....which is probably what we need at times. lol ...
What we come here for is for understanding and support for putting ourselves in the front row of the firing squad. So please forgive me if my comment has hurt your feelings, but yes, we are also capable of 'slapping' others in the face to wake them up.
I love your hit-n-run approaches cattails. It makes me giggle when I read them, even though I can feel the pain & truth behind them. How I wish at times I could be more like you and be able to develop that hard outer exterior, but it's not within me and I, like the others here, will battle on wanting the best for our mum's and come here to vent our frustrations in the hope that there will come just that one glimmer of an idea that will make all the difference to how we can manage it all better.
Perhaps your our catalyst? ...so please keep coming and commenting.
Cheers

Hi ASympathiser - how are things with you today? Thanks for asking about my leg - I don't get why they didn't put a plaster on it either, but I asked the dr. that very question and he said it wouldn't help any more than the brace would (?)
Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens after the xray this coming week. I'm just frustrated at how this has limited every single aspect of my life - you can't even imagine the effort it takes just to get from the edge of my bed to my washroom - 8 feet away!!
My frustration with my mother lies in the same place as yours but I am starting to see that I have to let go of that and just let what happens, happen. Why should I fool myself into thinking that all my hard work is going to make a difference - even though it has? If she doesn't care then why should I?
Daughter #1 should be coming this weekend to help with the laundry, which is stacking up. Neither I, nor my mother, or husband are able to do it. The other daughter may be here Sunday to do a couple of loads but she is the one who is going away and has plenty to do on her own......she has come for nine hours each and every Sunday since this happened to do whatever I have asked of her.
I knew that breaking a bone would mean a long rehab but it sure is hard to face the fact that I may not be mobile until December - and there is a lot between now and then.I'm just trying to suck up the frustration of not being as active a person as I usually am and it is really hard to look around this place and see all that needs doing, left undone.
We only moved in at the end of Feb. and it needs renovating. I had to downsize in a huge way in order to get into this building but still, I am left with an enormous amount of things that I must make room for. I can't very well be arranging furniture on my one good leg!
But - cooler heads will prevail and I try to remain positive and look forward to the day when I can walk normally again. Of course the main objective is for the bone to heal properly but right now, my leg looks so swollen and deformed that I am afraid it won't ever look the same and of course, there are the long-term ramifications of it. (possible knee replacement in a few years, dr. said).
No point in worrying about the future right now, I'm just trying to do it day-by-day. It's a challenge, not an obstacle, right?
Thanks so much for your ongoing concern and comments - it really helps me so much to know that I am heard (even if there are some on here who might not agree with me but that is their right!!)
Cheers to you too, and be well!

Aaahhh, Cattails, it's such a complex situation. It is not I who wishes she would eat a healthier diet - it is her doctors, to whom she lies every time she goes to them. I have been with her in the dr.s office when she has told them what she eats and it does not include macaroni and cheese, cookies and ice cream!
When my brother and I went out to her apt. after her second heart attack, the kitchen table was covered with every kind of coffee cake, pie, tart and cookie you could imagine......the fridge was full of bits and bites of stuff that she had saved for later and it was all the wrong foods.
I told the dr.s what I was making for her - I cook everything from scratch and she IS on a sodium and sugar-restricted diet so it was mostly fresh fruits and vegetables and salads, because she saw something on tv about meat that turned her off and she stopped eating it. That doesn't prevent her from pigging out on bacon, ham and bbq chicken when she goes out to eat, which is at least once a week.
I have sat in her hospital room when she has lied to the nurses and dieticians who have asked her "are you a diabetic"? and the answer is always NO - I control it with food. Control being the operative word!! She controls every morsel, every cookie, hides food in her room, justifies what she wants to eat.......I believe it's not about my control, but hers - she doesn't want me in charge of what she eats because she knows I wouldn't allow that kind of crap.
I don't see anything wrong in my trying to keep her alive and healthy by making sure she is eating well-balanced, freshly-prepared foods, which is exactly what her drs. want her to do - but she doesn't have any interest in that kind of food.
You would have to know her to see how her whole days/life are structured around food. She keeps score on every single item in the fridge and cupboards whether it is "hers" or not, will NOT share her "own" food, monitors who brings what into the house, and you dare not order out and not ask her, because then you will be subject to her wrath and punishment if she isn't included and doesn't get "her" share (never pays for it either).
Yes you are right - I have been unable to cook since I had my accident and she has taken full advantage of that. She goes in and out of the kitchen at least 10 times a day. The other night at dinner she appeared at my doorway with her plate and said in a nasty voice, "want to take a look at it?"
I have no wish to control anyone - that is not in my nature, nor am I am a punisher, as she has been all my life, so the fact that the roles are reversed now doesn't mean I have changed my outlook toward her. In the meantime I have to field comments from people like " oh, she's old! just let her eat what she wants" when I am trying my hardest to provide the proper foods to her to keep her healthy.
Does this mean that I should just give up and let her gorge herself on sugar, fat and salt-laden foods? I can bet you that these are what are affecting her moods, not to mention her blood sugar.
I agree with you in that I believe my care has given her an extra four years of life, four years in which she has seen my older daughter get married, gotten to know her great-granddaughter, and now we will have a second grandbaby in November. Since she has been with us she has had only two emerg. visits, both of her own creation (there was nothing wrong with her and she was sent home, and very angry about it too - both events were fabricated during family get-togethers for maximum drama benefit).
I guess you would have to have known her as I have all my life to get the full scope of how she operates, and I have no way of knowing how long she will live, of course.......no, I am not afraid of her death, she has actually told me that she wished she could just "take an overdose and get it over with" Yesterday she presented me with a nightgown in which she wished to be cremated.
It just irks me that I have tried so hard, with full commitment, in taking on her care when she has so little regard for her own health. I also see many, many other seniors who are active, pleasant and positive and that fact that my mother was not well-liked in her own apt. building speaks volumes to me. No I can't give in to the way she is, because it is so foreign and anathema to me, and so contradictory to the way she raised me, it's hypocritical and I guess my ethics won't permit me to allow it.
SO - it's either give up or give in. Live with it and shut up, or try to go against the grain in an effort to help her live out her days in a healthy manner. Perhaps you are right: it is HER choice, and she has made it. Right now and from now on I am going to focus on MY choices!! Thanks for the input - love you too!!

catails-i think this was totally uncalled for. Walk in her shoes for just one day and maybe you would sing a different tune. I just dont think libracat needed this today. All of us that have NM are trying to cope and understand the best that we can. My mom is 82-doesnt eat what she should-which is making her miserable with stomach pains-should stop smoking but wont and now has breathing problems-is addicted to xanax and that is not helping. Am I trying to control her by telling her she needs to stop or she will die or end up in the nursing home-i dont think so. This forum is to vent and get encouragment-not judgement!

Libracat: You are such an interesting person. I just can't figure you out. I wondered today, for the first time, if you are AFRAID your mother will die. She is such a beast to you and you go on and on about everything she does. The woman is 87 years old and you want to put her on a strict diet? You want to spend hours in the kitchen fixing her the best meals and then you want to constantly remind her that her health problems are due to the fact that she has spent years doing and eating whatever she wants.

Granted, she has been living with you for 4 years (I think) so maybe your meals have helped her. Still I think you are as controlling as she is. You just can't give in to the fact that she is who she is and just let her live the way she wants too. How long do you want her to live? Why do you insist on throwing her desires in her face and making what she wants to eat a daily issue?

Have you ever heard the expression "The irresistible force meets the immovable object?" I think that kind of sums you both up. I know your mom was/is a pain in the ass on countless occasions throughout your life, but she is 87 now. Who cares what she eats? Why do you insist on making that a daily issue? Maybe there is a part of you that loves her more than you want to admit. Or maybe you just want to control her the way she controlled you. I think she might be too crafty for you. Why not just let her have her way, eat what she wants and be with the family? What would happen if you asked her what she would like for dinner and just made it for her?

I'm guessing that your leg is keeping you out of the kitchen. That's got to be hard for you and I am hoping that your leg is healing correctly and this won't be an ongoing problem. Please keep us posted on that.

I don't mean to be so hard on you. I think you are a very good person. I just don't understand why you want to beat your head against a wall everyday. Did you ever hear spiritual people talk about resistance. They say the more you resist a situation, the more power you give to that energy you are resisting. You will never move your mom out of your home. Maybe it is time to stop resisting and just float on the river of acceptance. She's a crazy bitch and you can't change that, but you can't let her go either. So just accept that she is your crazy bitch mom and you want her to live with you and let her eat what she wants. Let it go.

Hoping the best for your leg and you soul. You know I love you, Cattails

LOL libracat...macaroni, icecream and cookies. Well, I guess she's her own person and will make her own choices, even if we feel they aren't the best ones. I've had to let go of pushing my mum to help herself. Her bull-headedness & tunnel-vision just won't allow her to budge and that's where my frustration lies. So I've made peace with the fact that I can't assist in helping her to live a longer life. I can only worry about my own. My mother is feeling defeated and is slowly letting go of her fight. I can only watch her unfold it all.

Wondering why your leg is in a brace and not plaster? It takes an average of 8weeks for bones to knit. Yes, I imagine the fear-factor would be whether it's knitting right. I know I was concerned about mum's arm the same way, but nature is a miracle-worker at these things when we do all the right things for the greatest advantage. I'm sure if your resting your leg, it is mending fine.

As for your daughter.....not knowing your full circumstances for help needed, I hope whoever's left will step up the pace for a few weeks to fill that gap? I'm fortunate to have great neighbours around my mother who fill in the carer's gap voluntarily.
Cheers

Hi, ASympathiser! Thank you so much for asking......it doesn't seem to be coming along as well as I had hoped, although it has barely been a month now.
Still wearing the brace (bondage!!) on it but have an appt. for xray on the 12th.
I really don't understand how they expect a big bone like that to heal on its own just by wearing this brace and without surgery.
Now my fear is that the dr. may look at the xray and say, ok, it doesn't look the way it should so we are going to operate on it!! Then all hell will break loose at home......plus I'm going to be losing one of my "helpers" (daughter #2) who is going away for two weeks so I'm going to have to do a little improvising.......
Meanwhile Mom said the other day after doing some light dusting in her room that she felt like she had had another heart attack but her nitro helped. It happened again yesterday after her nap and she said she had had another "spell" so I told her one more of those and she will be going to the hospital.
Could be one of her stents is not working properly, or she has another arterial blockage, which would not surprise me since she has been eating up a storm with all the wrong foods since I've been unable to make her meals - the other night's dinner was -- ready -- macaroni and cheese with ice cream and two cookies to follow - if you say anything to her you get "I'm 87! I can eat whatever I want" or "last time I checked eating a cookie wasn't against the law" !!!
She just doesn't want to make ANY changes to keep herself healthy, which infuriates me, and will not admit that eating like this is the reason she has had all these problems in the first place........
Oh, well. Keep ya posted and thanks again!

Wow! That's all very sad.

BTW libracat...how is your broken leg?

Cheers

PS the way they win is to nag and pester over and over until they get you to give in so that they get their own way and what they want. This is what my NM did to my father - complaining unmercifully about every little thing til he finally threw up his hands in defeat. It was a sad, sick, horrible thing to watch happen to a wonderful, caring man. Consequently he lost his life through this.

Right on, playagradma - good for you. I am sending you massive amounts of strength today so you DON'T cave!! (I know the temptation, out of guilt from them, is there).
Don't let yourself be manipulated for then you are allowing them to play their game. You can do it!! Expect to be ignored and "punished" because 1) she is not getting her way - and 2) she is not getting what she wants. If the homecare person is sent there to do her laundry, then let them do it. If she chews that no one has called home care to get someone to come to her house to do it, then give her the number -- if she is capable of planning an "escape" out of deviousness, then she is capable of picking up the phone and calling to arrange that ( as she can pick up the phone so easily to pester you to do it).
If anyone on this site has the least doubt about what a narcissist is, here is the classic, perfect example (which I hope you at least get a laugh out of) -- if this doesn't bring it home, nothing will:
My mother's bathing lady came today. The first person she sees down the hall is me, lying on my bed nursing my broken leg. She comes into my room to use the phone to check in with her care service and to sign the log book which I keep in my night table.
She happens to ask me how I am feeling, and how my leg is. I start to tell her, and then, in a loud booming voice from the other bedroom - my mother's - we hear "I'M the patient!!"
I waited til after the shower, after lunch and after her nap and when she passed my doorway and looked in, I said "Why did you make that rude remark?"
Well - she has it covered, of course....."I'M her patient.....not you. She comes here for ME, not YOU. She spends 15 minutes with me and a half-hour talking to you."
Of course, this is not true, and I pointed out that this is MY home, I am entitled to speak to whomever enters it, and what was I supposed to do, not answer when someone is kind enough to ask me how I am? Naturally that went right over her head, because it's all about HER, always......your answers never count and are never right, only hers are. She refuses to entertain any logic especially when it is about her, which it is 99.9% of the time, in her mind.
This is not the first time this has happened. She has fought about me talking to every single bathing lady we have ever had for her, because of her immaturity, childishness, and possessiveness. I am not even allowed to talk to any of her friends when they call, and, if I do, when I hand the phone over to her I always get a sarcastic comment: "Took you long enough" "It's about time"........
Just hang in there, do your thing and don't cave!! The stronger you are, the weaker she becomes.......hopefully (((HUGS)))

an update and a dilemma. As youi know my NM accused me of bossing her around after i spent a good part of two weeks doing her laundry, running errands for her and basically making sure she was comfortable while she had to stay in the nursing home. She went back to her apartment sunday-my middle brother helped with her this. She had the gall to call me monday morning that i needed to get out and do her laundry. I called her back but she had left her apartment already-this was after she tells me she is just too weak to do her laundry. So I left a message telling Icould not come out to do her laundry. That she needed to contact home health services-they will do her laundry and furthermore I wasnt sure when I could go out and I have not talked to her since last thursday when I attended that meeting. Now I feel like I am obligated to check on her. My family told me to stay away -she is being taken care of and since she doesnt seem to appreciate anything I try and do for her-its time for to stop. I am almost there -I hope I dont cave!

playa - sounds like you have made great strides, despite beng told off, and not thanked for the flowers, and all that you did - I usually hear what is wrong with the flowers, so I don't send them as often as I used to, I think you are wise to step back, and I am glad you got over being hurt. I agree it is sad. I wanted to clarify with you something posted much earlier where you said that I said something like things would be better if we .... In fact I was quoting an article. I do find things are better if we follow the wisdom of distance and detachment, but I can't say it is rosy, or ever will be. Not yet for me anyway. I wish you well. Hope you are having a great weekend.
austin -you are doing so well in accepting, and detaching, and not taking any nonsense. Good for you!!! respect for self and others is soooo important.
((((((((hugs))))))) to all

playa - sounds like you have made great strides, despite beng told off, and not thanked for the flowers, and all that you did - I usually hear what is wrong with the flowers, so I don't send them as often as I used to, I think you are wise to step back, and I am glad you got over being hurt. I agree it is sad. I wanted to clarify with you something posted much earlier where you said that I said something like things would be better if we .... In fact I was quoting an article. I do find things are better if we follow the wisdom of distance and detachment, but I can't say it is rosy, or ever will be. Not yet for me anyway. I wish you well. Hope you are having a great weekend.
austin -you are doing so well in accepting, and detaching, and not taking any nonsense. Good for you!!! respect for self and others is soooo important.
((((((((hugs))))))) to all

I hear you it is sad for you as it is for me but I know she will not change she did not send me a card or call me on my birthday we will be visiting her for a while tomarrow on the way to my sisters and take her out to dinner because we promised we would but I am not taking any nonsense from her what will she do not talk to me wait she never calls me anyway-detachment is my favorite new word-your mother is planting the seeds and will reap what she sows-if she has to go into AL let her make the arrangments since she can not treat you with respect.

Time for an update on my NM. She has been in the therapy section of the nursing home for the last couple of weeks. Mainly to get her strength back. My three brothers were gone all last week on a fishing trip so I was the only one around. I am like 45 minutes away but went to see her almost every day-did her laundry as she didnt want the nursing home to do it-got someone to clean her apartment.-ran errands-had lunch with her. All was going fine mainly cause she knew I was the only one around to help plus her daggers dont come out she isnt feeling good. The sons got home-my sister from north carolina arrived and those fangs came out. All I did for her I was accussed of bossing her around -that I had a big mouth because I had to tell them she had a pack of cigarettes in her purse plus a lighter in the nursing home which is a big no-no. Since is always saying she wishes someone would buy her flowers-I did. I have yet to get a thank you for any of the above. the bright side-we found out what was causing her potassium to drop out. We are now getting her meds monitored-she is not to buy any over the counter meds and she is to stop smoking in her apartment(biggest reason its not allowed)-if she dont abide these rules-she will be forced into assisted lliving-if she refuses her dr will no longer be her dr. for the moment I am through with her-cant say it be forever but tor the moment its again time to step back. I accompolished what I set out to do. I got over with being hurt-not even mad. Its sad this woman has to be so hateful but she is and thats that. I hope everyone has a great weekend and a happy and safe fourth of July. In my neck of the woods its very very hot-if yours is-stay cool

Thanks very much, ladies. Yes, Judy, she lives with us every day......my sibling is unable or unwilling to take her for more than part of a day, usually on a holiday or birthday, usually, I'm sure, out of guilt.
Yes the constant criticizing and judging is very, very wearing and imagine that I'm subject to it now on a continual basis having to lie in bed with a broken leg.
Everything/everyone is subject to her scrutiny. She just came to my bedroom door and, out of the blue, says "I don't know why you have to sleep in your underwear......why do you wear it, day in, day out........the worst thing man ever created in this heat, bras" HUH?!?
Oh yes, they are capable of turning on the waterworks when you call them on things, but that is so they can play the victim and try to turn the sympathy back on themselves and again, absolve themselves of any blame in their direction.
This is also how they get others on their side......one day in the hospital she starts blubbering and said to the nurse "she's so mean and nasty". My daughter heard that and told her to stop it!! The nurse told ME that if I didn't stop it she'd ask me to leave! I said, go ahead, it would be my pleasure!!
You barely see a sweet side of MY mother, so you are indeed fortunate - try to focus on that part. The only side that I get IS the toxic side, but golden boy (brother) gets the sweet side however he is on to her.
Speaking of breaks, it almost feels as though having broken my leg was meant to be (pardon the pun) a "break" for me so that this selfish family would realize just how much I do for them........as I said earlier, the woman who stopped doing anything for herself and enjoyed being waited on hand and foot suddenly steps up and turns into Suzy Homemaker. But I know why: it allowed her to take complete control and step into a role reversal - I am immobilized so she started doing the meals for herself, dishes etc. In her narcissistic way she is enjoying doing things around here and that fulfills her supply of being "owed" something, if you follow: "Oh didn't I help out when you were laid up? Didn't I do the best I could when you couldn't even get out of bed? I tried my best to do things around here and make myself useful".....
Hand me the Kleenex!!

Libra - I don't know how you do it. I cringe when I think of having Mom live with me - having that critical eye on my family day in and day out - picking every one of us apart, like she's above it all. And, you know, when I've called her out on a few things, she's gotten all teary and "hurt" and has accused me of misunderstanding her. OMG. She can be very sweet, but there's that other toxic side to her. Don't want to rave, so I'll shut up! I read your post saying "ugh" out loud. How do you escape it? Can you recharge somewhere else for a few days at a time? Or send her away for breaks? Your mom sounds like she can get around alright, and get her own food, and maybe can be left alone? Is she with you permanently? My heart goes out to you. I don't know how you do it without losing it. I'd be angry every minute that my mother was here. Angry, resentful, and I hate to say this, but sort of grossed out. I don't know what the hell is the matter with me lately with that!

libra - I understand your feelings that your mum drove your father to his death. I have similar feelings. Being subjected to the continual anger she lashed out at him must have affected his healh. It was daily, if not hourly. My father drank too. Eventually he developed vascular dementia. I have wondered if it was, in some way, an escape. My exs dad was narcissitic, and did not develop dementia, but died from a heart condition. His mum was a decent person, and she is still alive, but has Alz. She is very physically healthy, lived a healthy lifestyle, she was slim and active, a high school math teacher, there are no other cases of Alz in the family -it does make you wonder if the stress of the continual abuse is partly the cause. I am not suggesting that this is always the case, for I think it is much more complex than that, but I do wonder about her and my dad.
Yes, the narcissist takes no responsibility, or blame for anything they do. They don't seem capable of it.
Hope your day works out better than it started. A break for you would be good.

Judy, been there.......we have lived the same lives. My Dad had two sides, though - it was he who taught me almost everything about life that I have learned but, on the other hand, if my mother was "riding" him ( which she took every opportunity to do) he could turn into a psychotic mess.
She complained so much about him to his own family doctor (!) that he had to be admitted to the hospital and I can't even tell you what they did to him in there.....when I went to see him he was a changed person. The level of glee to which she operated at home during his hospitalization was completely evil.
Finally he turned to the bottle as his escape and then things really escalated. His punishment became even more severe and so did his acting out, but all this time, she put a good "face" out there to everyone in the neighborhood.
Three incidents already this morning (I've only been up for an hour) that started the day off real nice: she screwed up on taking her pills and the one for tonight was missing. She says, "somebody else must have taken it". Ok........
Then one of my crutches falls down on the kitchen floor and I can't reach it. She's too lazy to pick it up and just leaves it there, then tries to step over it and trips on it. I said, wouldn't it have been easier to pick it up instead of risking a fall over it? Get this -- "I thought that's where you wanted it" OMG..........
Last but not least, she's in the dining room on the way to her room with her huge bowl of cereal and proceeds to spill milk all over one of the chair seats. When I asked her what happened, she tells me that "the cat was in my way and my bowl tilted" The cat was in the KITCHEN when this happened!!
WHY is it easier for them to lie and deny and avoid accepting responsibility for what they have done that they know is wrong? Because their narcissism makes them believe that they are beyond wrong-doing and accepting the blame for anything!!
On my mother's 80th birthday, I asked her why, if my Dad was such a monster, didn't she just take us and go. I gently suggested that that would have been the right thing to do so that we three could have had a better chance at life. Not only would she not discuss it, she just said that it was all his fault and that she had done nothing wrong.
At this age, I now realize that I owe my father a huge dosage of forgiveness (even though he's passed) for all the hate I harbored for him during my growing - up years. I can totally see now that she drove him to madness and in effect, was completely responsible for his death. It was his only escape, it seems.

Absolutely, judy - never let them move in with you. It is bad enough having to deal with them at a distance. I know you know it is so much nonsense, but I can see it still gets to you to a degree, though not as much as if they were in the same house as you. That has been the only way I can detach to a degree. I couldn't do it if I had the spite and anger facing me daily. Even a visit to her over a few days "gets to me". I don't want to end up bitter, and hating anyone, so I have to keep my distance, or I become someone I don't want to be. Thankfully we have that choice. You don't sound awful wanting them both to go. I feel the same way about my mum and sis, though they are both healthy. I was heading for a life of prostitution too, according to mother, whose suggestions as to how to save me came straight from the crazy house. They are mentally ill - best to not take it personally for sure, but also best to keep them at arms length. In my opinion, no home is equipped to deal that that kind of cruelty, and just plain sick behaviour. The craziness and hurt will continue as long as they are alive.
Prayers for all dealing with this.
(((((hugs)))))
Joan

Judy: You ROCK. I have so much respect for you and I think the way you handle what your mom says is beyond perfection. Let me quote, "We skip right over my mother's comments, and if she repeats it, like certainly no one's heard, we tell her we heard her the first time, and we move on." I absolutely love it.

Don't ever let them move in with you. If they can't make it on their own, then it's time for AL or a senior facility like the one Lisa's mom is in. You know, it might not be a bad idea to do some research on those types of places in your area. Could be a waiting list and you might want to get them on it early.

Hugs and love, Cattails

Libra, Playa, you're both so lucky to have had sweet dads. My dad was a very, very angry guy until a few years ago. We all tip toed around him, staying out of view, to avoid him and the anger. I'd see him approaching the house when I was a kid, and I'd run upstairs to my room. If he was in the kitchen, I'd wait till I heard him leave the room before venturing down for breakfast. When I was really little though, he used to take me out to breakfast on Sunday mornings. Just me. Special, huh? I met his girlfriend on Sundays. Had to sit in the car and wait for him to come back from her car on Sundays. But, I got pancakes and a stick of sugar cane from the vendor by the train station, and Dad was in a good mood so I didn't mind being left in a parked car in a cemetery (that's where they met - weird, huh? But it was across from the pancake place where she waitressed. We'd eat near the end of her shift, I guess, in the early morning, and then wait at the cemetery for her). My best memories of my dad are the times he used me for an excuse to meet his girlfriend. Ugh. Now that he's an old man, he's pretty vacant. I like him better this way, which is sad, because I still don't like him at all and I'm hoping he passes on soon. Like, today, would be nice. If he'd take Mom with him, it'd be great. Dad is confused, and often blank, but not angry anymore. My mother complained about him my whole life. Seemed justified because the guy was an unempolyed, raging troll all of my life (after she worked and put him through college and law school and then worked her whole marriage to put food on the table when he sat at home chain smoking). But, she dragged me through every issue when I was a kid, telling me to pack and that we were leaving him. "We". She's always threatened to leave, still does. Now that Dad is sort of a zombie, with some lucid moments, she's mad about that. Holy crap. Make up your mind. You hated him for being an angry bum (she didn't know about the gf, even after the woman sent her a letter - "poison pen letter" my mother calls it - an "outrageous claim"). Now that Dad stays out of your way in his own little confused world, you hate him for that. She's never happy. If you bring her a bunch of flowers, she'll point out the wilted one. If one of the adult grandchildren visits (which is rare because she's so miserable, they avoid her), after they leave, she'll remark to me how fat he or she has gotten, or how badly they dress, and then list everything they ate while they were there and tell me they were "glutonous" and disgusting. My dad's stories are wild now. Always a beat em up tale. Always the underdog who outsmarted and out fisted someone who deserved it. Mom has been the victim - the ugly child, the unlucky girl, the wife who "tried to make a silk purse from a sow's ear" (dad), never got to see the world as promised, never got to have an easy life, "second hand rose" who never had anything new, how she sacrified her life to stay with him so we'd have the benefit of a 2 parent household (benefit? omg), blah, blah, blah. I get so sick of it. And, I'm so tired of the negativity and the attacks (I was a tramp (really, this is what she said) and my husband saved me from a life of promiscuity and "who knows what") - that's just one thing, usually followed up by the painful birth story - how she "suffered to give me life" - no shit, another quote. Its just wicked. She says my boys are wild. (Uhhh.... so wild that my oldest just made the dean's list. That's a wildman for ya.) She favors my daughter, who I think she sees herself in, but my daughter is sweet to a fault, so I have no idea what parallels my mother draws. So, its just easier to dismiss them. And, I know I sound awful, but I wish they'd both just go soon. They won't, I know. I help them out of obligation because I'm the daughter, but I'll never have either one live with me. I can't even imagine it. The thought repulses me. I tune them out. Dismiss them. It doesn't matter. They don't matter. God, its good to vent! Sorry for the tirade... but it felt good. I could go on and on, but I won't. Haven't even told my husband some of this crap. Anyway, thank you, Libra and Playa, for listening and making me feel like I'm not alone with this nastiness.

and also not sure if I mentioned this better-my dad was a saint. Our whole family worshipped him-he taught us all well. He love our mother uncondtionally and would referree more than once on her behalf. We never understood how he put up with her. In the end, I think she finally wore him out-anytime she came to visit him in the nursing home-he put a blamket over his head and refused to talk to her. Its almost like he chose to die to get rid of her forever.