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I think it's pretty common for an elderly person to hold on to their assets with an iron fist. Most have limited funds and even less ability to add to them. My MIL had no working plumbing in her house. She wouldn't part with the money and having a stranger in the house made her anxious. (My husband and my nephew tried many times to fix it, but they are not plumbers!) There could also be some hurt feelings that a family member would ask for money instead of doing the care "for love". The only alternative I know of is to decline to provide the care.
I also want to mention that if someone is going to compensate a family member to provide care, it should be done with the assistance of a lawyer and a formal agreement, if there is any chance the person would ever need Medicaid. Otherwise, the funds could be considered gifts to the caregiver and the application for Medicaid denied.
If you have to quit a job, maybe placing her in Assisted Living would be good. Tell her her care is too much for you. That you can't afford to be a fulltime caregiver, you must work. You have your own future to consider and your not going into debt to care for her.
She could live another 10 years. Will you be able to get back into the work force then. You do not owe Mom your financial security when there are options. Its what it is. You need to work, she needs to pay for her care. Either by hiring an aide or moving into an Assisted Living.
Firstly, just a FYI, it takes a LIFETIME to save money enough to take care of us in age. Your elder is 91 according to your profile. If she saved enough for her aging care then she has a "habit" you might say, of saving. Not spending. And much we old say we are "ready to go" (I, at 81, say it all the time) it is difficult to grasp that we can finally let go of that saving habit. So cut her a bit of slack and approach her with honesty.
Tell Mom you now need to see an elder law attorney together to make a contract for "shared living expenses". This prevents "rental" which is taxable, and moves it into the realm of helping with the mortgage or rent or insurance or upkeep and into the realm of transportation costs, food costs, care costs, personal items costs, cooking costs and etc. The Elder Law guy/gal will help you with this; it's what they do (among other things).
Then you have this money coming in and it isn't a daily knit-picking for this and that and the other, and a whole lot of talk about it all.
In the case of someone in 90s who may no longer be capable of DOING care contract you can be representative payee for SS, handle the money as a guardian would, paying her shared living expenses and again, discuss with elder law attorney to stay well within the laws of your state.
Wishing you good luck. Know that there is no way that your elder can simply GIVE you money. Should she ever require care/help with care by the State Medicaid any money given without a strong legal paper trail would, with the 5 year lookback, appear as "gifting" you money. She wouldn't get assistance.
SEE A LAWYER. Her funds should pay for THAT as well! Wishing you the best. Hope you will update us that you did see someone, did make a contract, and what it was like. People always write us to complain but very seldom write us with their solutions.
If you don't have the funds to be your moms full-time caregiver and pay all your household bills, then it's time to place mom in the appropriate facility using her money and you go get a paying job. You are not, under any circumstances obligated to care for your mom in your home. You should have established what your mom was going to be financially responsible for BEFORE you agreed to take her in. So if for some reason you feel you must continue on with her care, then I would tell mom that she either starts contributing towards the household, or you will be placing her in a nursing facility. Maybe the the realization of that might wake her up and have her start parting with some of her money. Your mom has had her life, please don't give up yours for her care, especially when it's affecting your wellbeing.
I think for our parents' generation it's very common.
My Mom is 95 and her older sister (for whom I am also PoA) is 105. Grew up on the edge of the Depression. Daughters of poor immigrants. Fixated on leaving money to their own children and grandchildren (rather than spending it on themselves or paying them that inheritance now). Terrified of running out of money, or the government "getting" the money... on and on.
I won't be doing any of that. My husband and I worked hard all our lives and lived as well as possible rather than waiting for retirement (traveling, family vacations, home improvements - nothing extravagant but still very comfortable). I have already told my own 3 sons that the money we saved and is now in a trust is not for them to inherit but to pay for our care so that none of them have to do it. One son has 3 kids and may have more. One son lives 2 hours away and the other lives out of state. I cannot imagine burdening them with our care.
But people from Old World immigrant families have a culture of assuming daughters into caregiving and not paying them. It happened to 2 of my Aunts. I found out that not one of their 3 millionaire siblings (or the other average income siblings) gave them a penny or a caregiving break while they hosted my Grandmother in their home for a 15 years. My Grandmother never spoke English or held a job so no SS income for her. I and another cousin literally got on our brooms and shamed my Uncles to pieces enough for them to cough up something to my surviving 105-yr old Aunt. Better late than never. She's literally running out money since she retired early to take care of my Grandmother, and now living so long.
The caregiving arrangement must work for the caregiver, it cannot be onerous to them. The family member needs to insist on being paid, and have a written contract for Medicaid purposes.
In my mom's old neighborhood, they are all competing on who dies first, none of them will give up. And I've noticed they are also competing who has the most money in the bank when they die.
I guess it makes them feel in control
Probably where the saying " you can't take it with you", comes from.
Whichever way you're asking the question, I'd estimate at least 75% of the time our elders have no idea how much time/money/emotional toll they take. Kind of experienced here; only child of my mom who died of Alz complications in '18 and I guess traded off to my dad ( I am an only from them both) who has been on hospice for over two months . My life has been shot for the last ten years; neither of them had/has an even remotely current spouse. That's why I started paying into long term care insurance about 15 years ago; all these medical miracles are also creating living zombies for nursing homes and hospices; fantastic profit-margins. Get real with the family member who wants it "their way"; I had to with my dad it got Crazy. He refused to sign me as his POA, then signed himself out of the hospital AMA; he got home two states away then freaked out because no one was there with a red carpet. He had called cops on his two reliable caregivers and no one else in his little town would care for him any longer. The state was pressuring me to become his "guardian". I looked at the details of that crap and said NOPE. I'm not going to take my own fool dad to court sorry if he's wanting to have it this way despite my attempts at helping, then let the state take over I am Sorry.
So he signed himself out of that hospital AMA, figured out how to pay a driver to take him home, then had the balls to call the cops and give them my number. I said put him on the phone. I was having a nice walk in my neighborhood then slammed into his world. I said Look; I'll drive the 11 hours to get there to help you out with all of this junk, and I'll show up with the POA and Will paperwork. If you don't sign, believe me you I will leave and drive right back home. I have had enough of your Crap. It was not pleasant or spiteful in any way on my part I had just Had It and was beyond my breaking point. I'm doing him a Favor since he left me and my Mom on food stamps in 1972 and had a life full of women, carelessness, and being an ass in general. This is already too long-winded, yet my final answer is that it seems as though your parent did not sufficiently plan or perhaps did plan for this checker/chess game. How do you see this playing out? I never for one minute thought that taking care of my parents would take over a decade of my life, yet here I am. Is this you as well? Could it be you?
If you’re living with her and caregiving full time, it would be more than generous to comp her hours for your room and board.
Independent Caregivers here cost 20 bucks starting for 40 hours, that’s 3466 a month. An average room costs 1000 here, so 2466. Which is what it costs you to live there. So that’s 29000 a year you could spend working somewhere else.
But instead you’re still paying the utilities? What pray tell is she paying for with her money then?
I’d put it a bit differently from Beattie’s list: 1) You never asked so I assumed you didn’t need/want money. 2) You are going to get whatever I leave, so it will eventually come to you anyway. 3) I wouldn’t know where to start working out how much is reasonable to pay.
If there is an element of any of these, you need to ask for a financial contribution, and work out how much to ask for. Explain that ‘whatever I leave’ may be very little if you need care at the end – care costs several thousand dollars a MONTH. And if Medicaid is involved and there is lump sum payment at the end, it will be classed as a gift, not payment for services rendered. So it needs to be done NOW.
You really do need to do some difficult sums about ‘how much is reasonable’. A percentage of all the outgoings, whether it’s for power, water, rates, repairs, lawn mowing and other payments for the house. Then a percentage of the bills for food and the fuel to go and get it. And lastly payment for the hours of care at the local going rate (which you can find out by asking for the cost of private carers). Set it all out on paper, and then have a discussion with your parent. I’d do it by saying that you have been reading about care costs, and for your own interest you have worked it out and written it down. Here it is. You are finding the finances quite difficult, so what are we going to do about it, parent? This is a better approach than “you love your money more than me”.
Could always had a love of money.. But I suspect there are many reasons. . Frugalness - long held values . Lack of awareness what things actually cost these days.. "$4 for biscuits!! No that can't be right!" . Lack of understanding the value. Similar thing. Stuck back in past memories.. when broken biscuits came very cheaply in paper bags . Entitled attitude - "I paid for you kids now YOU pay for me" . Lack of empathy - reduced ability to care about your feelings . Lack of interest, depression. . Lack of memory or ability. "I'll pay you later.." but can’t.
Returning to work in a paid job sometimes shakes things up!
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
I also want to mention that if someone is going to compensate a family member to provide care, it should be done with the assistance of a lawyer and a formal agreement, if there is any chance the person would ever need Medicaid. Otherwise, the funds could be considered gifts to the caregiver and the application for Medicaid denied.
If you have to quit a job, maybe placing her in Assisted Living would be good. Tell her her care is too much for you. That you can't afford to be a fulltime caregiver, you must work. You have your own future to consider and your not going into debt to care for her.
She could live another 10 years. Will you be able to get back into the work force then. You do not owe Mom your financial security when there are options. Its what it is. You need to work, she needs to pay for her care. Either by hiring an aide or moving into an Assisted Living.
Firstly, just a FYI, it takes a LIFETIME to save money enough to take care of us in age. Your elder is 91 according to your profile. If she saved enough for her aging care then she has a "habit" you might say, of saving. Not spending. And much we old say we are "ready to go" (I, at 81, say it all the time) it is difficult to grasp that we can finally let go of that saving habit. So cut her a bit of slack and approach her with honesty.
Tell Mom you now need to see an elder law attorney together to make a contract for "shared living expenses". This prevents "rental" which is taxable, and moves it into the realm of helping with the mortgage or rent or insurance or upkeep and into the realm of transportation costs, food costs, care costs, personal items costs, cooking costs and etc. The Elder Law guy/gal will help you with this; it's what they do (among other things).
Then you have this money coming in and it isn't a daily knit-picking for this and that and the other, and a whole lot of talk about it all.
In the case of someone in 90s who may no longer be capable of DOING care contract you can be representative payee for SS, handle the money as a guardian would, paying her shared living expenses and again, discuss with elder law attorney to stay well within the laws of your state.
Wishing you good luck. Know that there is no way that your elder can simply GIVE you money. Should she ever require care/help with care by the State Medicaid any money given without a strong legal paper trail would, with the 5 year lookback, appear as "gifting" you money. She wouldn't get assistance.
SEE A LAWYER. Her funds should pay for THAT as well!
Wishing you the best. Hope you will update us that you did see someone, did make a contract, and what it was like. People always write us to complain but very seldom write us with their solutions.
You are not, under any circumstances obligated to care for your mom in your home.
You should have established what your mom was going to be financially responsible for BEFORE you agreed to take her in.
So if for some reason you feel you must continue on with her care, then I would tell mom that she either starts contributing towards the household, or you will be placing her in a nursing facility.
Maybe the the realization of that might wake her up and have her start parting with some of her money.
Your mom has had her life, please don't give up yours for her care, especially when it's affecting your wellbeing.
My Mom is 95 and her older sister (for whom I am also PoA) is 105. Grew up on the edge of the Depression. Daughters of poor immigrants. Fixated on leaving money to their own children and grandchildren (rather than spending it on themselves or paying them that inheritance now). Terrified of running out of money, or the government "getting" the money... on and on.
I won't be doing any of that. My husband and I worked hard all our lives and lived as well as possible rather than waiting for retirement (traveling, family vacations, home improvements - nothing extravagant but still very comfortable). I have already told my own 3 sons that the money we saved and is now in a trust is not for them to inherit but to pay for our care so that none of them have to do it. One son has 3 kids and may have more. One son lives 2 hours away and the other lives out of state. I cannot imagine burdening them with our care.
But people from Old World immigrant families have a culture of assuming daughters into caregiving and not paying them. It happened to 2 of my Aunts. I found out that not one of their 3 millionaire siblings (or the other average income siblings) gave them a penny or a caregiving break while they hosted my Grandmother in their home for a 15 years. My Grandmother never spoke English or held a job so no SS income for her. I and another cousin literally got on our brooms and shamed my Uncles to pieces enough for them to cough up something to my surviving 105-yr old Aunt. Better late than never. She's literally running out money since she retired early to take care of my Grandmother, and now living so long.
The caregiving arrangement must work for the caregiver, it cannot be onerous to them. The family member needs to insist on being paid, and have a written contract for Medicaid purposes.
I guess it makes them feel in control
Probably where the saying " you can't take it with you", comes from.
Get real with the family member who wants it "their way"; I had to with my dad it got Crazy. He refused to sign me as his POA, then signed himself out of the hospital AMA; he got home two states away then freaked out because no one was there with a red carpet. He had called cops on his two reliable caregivers and no one else in his little town would care for him any longer. The state was pressuring me to become his "guardian". I looked at the details of that crap and said NOPE. I'm not going to take my own fool dad to court sorry if he's wanting to have it this way despite my attempts at helping, then let the state take over I am Sorry.
So he signed himself out of that hospital AMA, figured out how to pay a driver to take him home, then had the balls to call the cops and give them my number. I said put him on the phone. I was having a nice walk in my neighborhood then slammed into his world. I said Look; I'll drive the 11 hours to get there to help you out with all of this junk, and I'll show up with the POA and Will paperwork. If you don't sign, believe me you I will leave and drive right back home. I have had enough of your Crap.
It was not pleasant or spiteful in any way on my part I had just Had It and was beyond my breaking point. I'm doing him a Favor since he left me and my Mom on food stamps in 1972 and had a life full of women, carelessness, and being an ass in general. This is already too long-winded, yet my final answer is that it seems as though your parent did not sufficiently plan or perhaps did plan for this checker/chess game. How do you see this playing out? I never for one minute thought that taking care of my parents would take over a decade of my life, yet here I am. Is this you as well? Could it be you?
Independent Caregivers here cost 20 bucks starting for 40 hours, that’s 3466 a month. An average room costs 1000 here, so 2466. Which is what it costs you to live there. So that’s 29000 a year you could spend working somewhere else.
But instead you’re still paying the utilities? What pray tell is she paying for with her money then?
1) You never asked so I assumed you didn’t need/want money.
2) You are going to get whatever I leave, so it will eventually come to you anyway.
3) I wouldn’t know where to start working out how much is reasonable to pay.
If there is an element of any of these, you need to ask for a financial contribution, and work out how much to ask for. Explain that ‘whatever I leave’ may be very little if you need care at the end – care costs several thousand dollars a MONTH. And if Medicaid is involved and there is lump sum payment at the end, it will be classed as a gift, not payment for services rendered. So it needs to be done NOW.
You really do need to do some difficult sums about ‘how much is reasonable’. A percentage of all the outgoings, whether it’s for power, water, rates, repairs, lawn mowing and other payments for the house. Then a percentage of the bills for food and the fuel to go and get it. And lastly payment for the hours of care at the local going rate (which you can find out by asking for the cost of private carers). Set it all out on paper, and then have a discussion with your parent. I’d do it by saying that you have been reading about care costs, and for your own interest you have worked it out and written it down. Here it is. You are finding the finances quite difficult, so what are we going to do about it, parent? This is a better approach than “you love your money more than me”.
Good luck!
Could always had a love of money.. But I suspect there are many reasons.
. Frugalness - long held values
. Lack of awareness what things actually cost these days.. "$4 for biscuits!! No that can't be right!"
. Lack of understanding the value. Similar thing. Stuck back in past memories.. when broken biscuits came very cheaply in paper bags
. Entitled attitude - "I paid for you kids now YOU pay for me"
. Lack of empathy - reduced ability to care about your feelings
. Lack of interest, depression.
. Lack of memory or ability. "I'll pay you later.." but can’t.
Returning to work in a paid job sometimes shakes things up!