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My brother will not abide by my rules when using my mom's debit card. I live out of town, but I'm the POA of her checking and savings account. He's not doing anything wrong but buying items for her, but I told him I need the receipts because as POA I have to keep good records. He said he's not sending me the receipts because it is a pain to keep track of. Keep in mind it's only two or three receipts a week. Pathetic I know. Well, I'm thinking of canceling her debit card since he won't scan me copies of the receipts. My question is if I make it impossible for him to use the debit card, can he take her down to her bank and get her to move all the money to another checking account and add his name as joint owner and then get her to order another debit card? The thing is I'm the POA and from what I've read they will allow it. He's nasty enough to do that.

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I would think that, yes, he can take her to the bank and open a new account. Not only could she move all the money over, but then he'd have to figure out how to transfer all automatic deposits to the new account, and if you have automatic payments going out of the old account, what then? If you're concerned that canceling his current card could make a nastier situation worse, then it probably will. You could lose all control of your mom's finances and all the hard work you've done thus far.

You said yourself that he's not doing anything wrong and it's only two or three receipts a week and that it's for items he buys for her. In another response you said that while he's a jerk, you trust him to not steal from your mom. I understand you're just trying to be diligent about keeping accurate records but is this a can of worms you want to open over a few receipts? He does seemingly have a lame excuse for refusing to send you receipts but rather than doing something you might regret, just document each time he uses the debit card for your records.

My oldest brother has both medical and financial POA over our mom. We live in the same State and County but I live closer to her and do most of her day to day finances. He is on her account but I set up all the direct deposits and automatic payments and I deal with the creditors and landlord. He and I each have a debit card and a credit card. Generally neither of us questions the other and neither of us ever asks the other for receipts. We only talk to each other about unusual expenditures. However, I keep meticulous records of the cash I pull out of the account just in case any of our other siblings ask.
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Reply to MrsKitcat
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Are you her financial POA only? Or do you also have POA for healthcare related issues?

How much are these transactions? If they are only a hundred or so dollars and the debit transaction out of the Savings/Checking states POS -Walmart, or POS - Applebees you should be okay.

Red flags are raised when the transaction is over the States lookback threshold (NYS is currently $2,000). My uncles Eldercare lawyer said they don't look at anything that is $1,999 or less unless it is numerous transactions in a row of the same or similar dollar amount.

Joint owner means nothing because you mother is the primary owner and Medicaid recognizes that as the sole owner when analyzing the account. Therefore all the transactions are counted as your mothers regardless of the joint account holder. Any transactions from the account that your mother is primary owner will count as her asset in the eyes of Medicaid. This specifically applies to NY, but I imaging it is similar in other states.

Being in a contentious relationship with family regarding the healthcare and financial aspects of your mother is very difficult. I suggest if you have both POA duties you very intently look at either placing you mother in a proper care establishment. If you only have financial POA, I would suggest relinquishing your responsibility and giving your brother full access and hopefully your mother will be okay. Be there for your mother but know that this will most likely cause an irreparable rift with your brother regardless of how it shakes out.
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Reply to AMZebbC
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TME0128 Sep 5, 2024
Yes I have financial POA and medical POA. My brother has copies of both and his name is listed on the financial POA in case I can't handle it anymore. The medical POA was done in years ago and I was chosen because I'm the oldest. And thank you very much for all your valuable information that you provided.
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So, your brother is helping mom as the boots on the ground caregiver, going to get mom stuff 2 or 3 times a week and you think he needs to be cutoff from the debit card because he doesn't want to follow your rules?

I can not tell you how many times this forum tells people like you, I wouldn't be the caregiver without POA. So, if brother walks away, what are you, as the POA, gonna do to ensure mom has her needs met?

If mom is still competent your POA doesn't stop her from spending her money via your brother, tread carefully, you may find yourself without a boots on the ground caregiver for mom.

Maybe try a different approach from, "my rules". Cause personally if you made it hard for me to get mom stuff 2 or 3 times a week, I would say good luck, come do it your own self.

Have you thought about sending him a stamped envelope monthly that he can just put the receipts in and drop in the mail, then you can scan them in and stop trying to control the one doing the actual caregiving?

Yes, she can remove you from her finances and she can absolutely open new accounts with him as joint owner.
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Reply to Isthisrealyreal
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TME0128 Sep 5, 2024
I'm not trying to control anyone. I'm the POA of the account and there are rules that you follow when you are the POA and getting receipts is one of them. My brother has been nothing but a jerk through this whole process so this is just one thing he has done. I have a job to do and guess what whoever you are? I can't help that I live in another State. I'm the one who is handling all her finances and planning her future as far as getting into a home. This is going to mean that she will need Medicaid eventually. So I'm handling all that as well. I do everything that he asked me to do and I'm always available by the phone. I make her appointments and call and check on other issues and I pay all her bills including her rent. I also come down every 3 months and help out. I live quite a distance away. To be honest I get sick of people like you constantly upset over the other sibling living in another State. It's like they're hated for something that the out-of-state sibling can't control. It's not like I plan to live up here to get away from her. I've lived in another state for 40 years. I wasn't going to leave it where he couldn't get her groceries. I would just have him reimbursed. You see how simple that is? I'm sure he'll remember the receipts if I do that right? Just because he is the caregiver does not mean he gets to act the way he wants to act. As the POA, I am required to keep detailed records. They're not my rules.
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You can ask for a credit card from her bank, especially if it has no annual fee. My 105=yr old Aunt was automatically approved for a PNC Visa card because she has a checking and savings account with them. I never use my debit card, and my 95-yr old Mom doesn't use hers, either... only a credit card. As PoA you can register your concern about your brother with a banker there so they may be able to have a flag on her account for extra scrutiny.

Can you order the items on Amazon and have them shipped to her? I buy a lot of dry goods this way.

Your bro is already being a jerk... and suspicious. Don't trust him with anything this important. He's not giving you receipts right now for a reason.
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Reply to Geaton777
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TME0128 Sep 5, 2024
No even though he's being a jerk, one thing I know is he's not going to steal from her. He's not giving me the receipts because he can't remember to give them to me. That's his only reasoning. So I'm constantly having to ask and then he gets upset because I'm asking. So he's getting mad at me but it's himself he should be getting mad at. It's not hard to make a conscious effort to save a receipt with her debit card considering he only uses it two or three times a week. So basically this is his reasoning. I appreciate your response though.
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With you in a different town, there’s both all the potential for brother to financially abuse mom, and to also be making legit purchases. You cannot know without being onsite handling it yourself. No way I could have had this arrangement with my siblings, one would have blatantly taken money and the other would have produced no records at all. A mother with advancing dementia needs no access to money or a debit card and a POA who can actively handle finances. You already don’t trust brother, your gut is telling you that for a reason
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Reply to Daughterof1930
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TME0128 Sep 5, 2024
My brother can be a complete jerk but I trust him completely and I don't think he's going to steal anything, especially money or use her debit card on himself. He just doesn't want to remember to save the receipts.
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You are POA and are responsible now if your mother isn't able to handle her finances. This means that you need to understand how to do this.
I don't know if your brother is caregiver to mom but clearly he isn't able to or chooses not to do things that must be done.
I would first see an elder law attorney with these questions. I think you brother should be having NOTHING to do with purchasing for your mom and he may be unable now to be in charge of her care. To do POA with a demented mom and an uncooperative brother in charge of her, from out of state? Read that as I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E.
Moreover, no matter what brother is telling you, and given his anger issues, you have no guarantee WHAT is happening here. None at all. Mother likely needs placement now.
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Reply to AlvaDeer
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