What happens when nobody wants the job?

"FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, stand up for right and the promise of long life if you honor your parent NO MATTER WHAT. Take one step in the right mental direction and if your heart is not rotten...help will appear out of no where for you to carry on for the person that made it possible for you to write this question! "

Um, no. Help will not magically appear no matter what you do, no matter how sacrificial and self-abnegating you are in taking care of your parents. There is no "right thing" to be done here. You have a life - you are entitled to live it as you see fit. Don't let the religious moralizers demoralize you further than you already are.

coppertino,
That sick old woman made choices in her life...... and as CarlaCB said, help does NOT magically appear.

I’m in the same situation. Back in Dec, mom had several falls for “no apparent reason” - she didn’t trip on anything or felt dizzy. After 3rd fall took her to the hospital and made them admit her. They agreed to put her in rehab and I was certain that could be the catalyst to keep her in the nursing home.

Immediately applied for Medicaid, but Medicare discharged her after 17 days and Medicaid denied because she had not been in the NH long enough (30 days).

The case worker for the NH was no help at all, but if I knew then what I know now - I would have let them know she had no place to go and could not live alone.

When they discharged her she was no way ready to leave. Her coming to stay with me in the interim was supposed to be temporary. That was over 3 months ago. She doesn’t even ask about her house or her personal things there. I’m thinking because she’s afraid we will make her go back there.

She is getting around fine now and I’m more than ready to send her home. This has been brought up before and she said she’s not going!

I have 2 brothers who are useless. For 7 years I have been taking care of mom and her property/house even before she moved in with me. My brothers never offer any help. I’m just fed up with it all.

Many years ago I became dear friends with a lady who was like a mother to me. To make a long story short, she had no children and wasn't too close to other family members. We were extremely close, like mother and daughter. One day she fell and all hell broke loose. For a while her niece who had POA looked after her. Then one day we went to visit and the locks had been changed. We knew something was wrong. An outside family had been visiting her to sell her stuff (actually they saw an opportunity for a HUGE SCAM and almost succeeded). A bit of time went on and she ended up in the hospital and then came home. What followed was more hell. We found out this family had gotten thousands of dollars out of her, SS/pension checks were missing, and the list of horrors would fill a book. Finally her family asked me to step in and take over because I am considered a highly intelligent business person who had the ability to solve major problems. I did and my life was threatened, in front of witnesses, but I got the money back into HER name only. Checks were being forged and the responsible bank would not do anything. Finally in desperation I wrote the CEO of the bank, a huge one in many states and said if things were not put right, I would start a class action suit against the bank for $5 million and the CEO for $1 million. (He didn't know I was just bluffing.) Well, the ice was cracked. I eventually got all the stolen money back from the bank and even got the interest on her savings account to pay l8% retroactively to the l940's when she first opened the account. During all this time, I was working full time. I spent the next six months on my lunch hour and at night doing everything I could possibly to make things right for her but finally - VICTORY. She got her funds back, she recuperated and I put her into a beautiful private nursing home where she was happy and loved. And you know what, I took care of her completely for 28 years. She was nearly 100 when she passed. I learned things that I would never have known about and I am so grateful for that as since then I counseled many people how to have loved ones safe from scammers. I miss her. And aside from this lady, I took on a similar responsibility for two friends I had known for years and have been their POA doing everything for l4 years now. I know there are few people in this world who would do what I did - but I loved doing what I was doing and wanted to know I was doing some good in this world. Perhaps, and this is a big IF, is there anyone you know and is completely trustworthy that would be willing to do this for your mother? If not, and there probably isn't, the best advice I can offer is to place your parents in a good, reputable facility. You really do NOT have a choice because eventually the responsibility will be too much for you emotionally and physically and YOUR WAY OF LIFE WILL BE JUST AN OLD MEMORY. GOOD LUCK.

Catmomma4321,
Your mother may think because you and your girls live with her that somehow that gives her the right to talk to you all any way she wants, that she has the right to dictate how you will live your life, etc. Now that she sees you are ready to move on with your life with this new man, she is most likely afraid of the future, even if you have assured her there is a place for her in it. She doesn't want to change anything and surely doesn't want you to. The problem is you simply cannot let your mother live your life for you. I am all too familiar with your kind of situation as I have one very very similar & once my parents aren't quite as independent as they are now, I feel pretty confident my siblings will be nowhere around to assist.

Your mother might actually do better in an assisted living facility. I know of many people that are quite happy being surrounded by their peers, have medical care on the premises, planned activities, three meals per day ... along with very liberal visiting hours as well as being able to pick her up for outings.

I wish you all the luck, it is always difficult when faced with these decisions. It is also very difficult to give up your life and let someone else run it for you. In the end, it will just make you bitter.

No one person can perform a caregiving duty to infinity. Then there is the uncertainty of a situation, such as my mother's. She wasn't raising her hand for "HELP." I volunteered-not easily, mind you. I had to leave my state and move to her state. I did have a 6-month deadline, which went over when my sibling said "I won't do it."

They go into the best facility you can find, and you visit regularly, every day or every week if you want.

Moving your parents with you and your family DOES ruins your life, and your relationship with everybody you live with, your children, your husband, etc. It´s very stressing and challenging sometimes, even if your Mother was a sweet and nice person. I live with parents, both with several health issues. I got at the same point as you, and realized that things cannot go this way any longer. Sad but logic.

The thing is, well, no one I can think of wants to confess a massive tradeoff between handing a parent over (or for that matter a disabled child) to a skilled nursing facility in order to get some relief and paying about $1,200-5,000 per month to do so (depending on your region). That's quite a huge financial hit for most families; sure, it can come out of "Mom's" or "Uncle Fred's" financial assets, but then when they've done "Medicaid Spend Down" then and only then will the government take over (and it's not MediCare, it's Medicaid). For Medicaid you'll have to know that your loved one will not at all be guaranteed a spot in Rich Man's Manor. Medicaid will probably put them in High Pasture Estates (my moniker for where human livestock goes). The Medicaid bureaucracy isn't going to be picky on behalf of stone-broke elders and disabled persons who can't live at home with some sort of caregiver. But well before it gets to that point have you looked into whether or not your county or town even might have some sort of not-for-profit I (and hence less costly) adult day care center[s]? That's what Betty, my 90-yr old, was in for several years for 1-3 days a week for most of the day and I was out and about doing what I had to do while she was there at the center until 5 p.m. That sure saved my mind, body, and soul for close to four years! And because I did a good amount of volunteering for our center (like....well...I played SANTA two or three holiday seasons!) they gave Betty and me super great tuition discounts for several days worth of care. Try looking into it!

Just a word here: "Honor your parents" does NOT mean you have to obey them (I'm assuming we are not talking about minor children here), put up with abuse, etc. Also, you might read the rest of that Bible quote - you know the part addressed to parents to not harass their children lest the children lose heart. The fact is that NO ONE, absolutely no one ever, is anyone's lawful prey. So please, religious believers, get it right!

you do know this is not going to improve, your mother does not need you this is why they have nursing homes and assisted living facilities, go live your life and be happy. This is a miserable life to put you, your new man and your daughters - i was ok until you began speaking of the dogs and cats and birds and turtle - no no no - go live your happy life --

you say you don't want to, but yet then you say you're going to, so which is it?

Back to the original question, Catmomma. I did not mean to be harsh in my last posts, but worried you are putting too much hope in this new house you and your boyfriend are shopping for and perplexed as to how your boyfriend can afford such a house on his pay, one spacious enough for the two of you, your grown daughters, your divorced parents (at least four bedrooms) all those cats and dogs, room for Mom's new motorized wheelchair, plus grounds for horses and barn. What is going on with your daughters? If they were already young adults when you moved in with your parents three years ago, how have they been spending their time other than shopping and horseback riding and helping you with your mother and looking after the pets? If they are not in college and/or working, why not? If working and getting free room and board at your parents' house, why are you and your boyfriend "spending all your money on them"? For how far into the future is your new boyfriend willing to house and support your grown daughters? And are you sure you will continue to receive money from your ex-husband after you move in with your boyfriend?

Where is your boyfriend living now? You said it upsets your mother when he "comes home" at midnight. Surely he is not also living in your parents' house?

Okay, what will happen to your parents if you and your two adult daughters move out to live with your boyfriend? That probably depends on several things. You need to consult a good elder care attorney, find out what benefits each parent is entitled to, etc. You say the house where your parents live now is in your mother's name and your father gives her control of his military benefit pay, etc. As your parents are divorced, but still living together, this could turn out to be a sticky situation. Add to that the money gifted to your brother, and Medicaid application for a nursing home for your mother could get complicated. Would Medicaid take the house and leave your father homeless, as they are not married? Or would he be able to stay In It if he is considered her caregiver for the past 5+ years? Could he live alone in the house, given his medical problems? How would the income from his military benefits be divided up? Will he be able to afford AL or have to go into a Medicaid or VA nursing home? You need to consult the attorney, or at least a social worker at the VA, and find out what the possibilities are, and what your legal obligations are. If you are considered your mother's caregiver, will you be charged with neglect if you simply leave your bedridden mother all alone?

If you and your grown daughters move in with your boyfriend and take all the pets with you, how will you afford all those cats and dogs and horses on his first responder's pay alone? Will he be able to support you and your daughters and all those animals? If your parents' house is sold and they are living in nursing homes, where will you and your daughters go if things don't work out with your boyfriend? If your take your parents with you, too, then what becomes of them in case you and your boyfriend call it quits? I can see where your parents may not want to give up their home and become dependent on the good graces of your boyfriend for the very roof over their heads.

You say you and your daughters moved in with your parents three years ago and your father went to rehab for his knee two months ago. You also said your mother was not so disagreeable before your father left the home for knee surgery/rehab. Are you hoping she will be more agreeable again when he returns from rehab? Anyway, until then, there were three able-bodied adults (you and your grown daughters) to look after your mother and the pets full time, plus whatever care or babysitting your father was able to provide. What happens when your father needs care, too, and your daughters have gone off to live their own lives? Can you care for two helpless elderly people and all those pets alone? Again, exactly how much in-home nursing care are your parents entitled to or can afford? You need to find this out. It gets very expensive. If your boyfriend works six days a week as a first responder, you will be stuck with a lot of the house and grounds maintenance, too, or will have to hire people to take care of gutters, grounds maintenance, etc.

It sounds like you are already in precarious financial situation, dependent on your ex-husband and new boyfriend for money, your parents for a place to live. If you move in with the boyfriend and remain unemployed, you may be entirely dependent on him for housing and money. On top of that, your daughters and the horses and pets will be, too, unless the daughters get good jobs that enable them to live on their own and support their own horses and pets.

As it stands, your mother needs someone in the house with her 24/7 -- if she can barely make it from her bed to the bedside potty chair and is a fall risk, you or one of your daughters must stay home with her at all times, or else take her with you in the wheelchair. Yes, it's a tough, restrictive situation for you. You cannot simply walk out on her and all those animals, especially while your father is still at the rehab center. Whether you choose to leave with or without you mother and/or father, you need to find out what the options are for placing her in a care facility and be ready to place her in it if and when the time comes. You and/or your new boyfriend may reach a limit and have to place her. You need to start looking into this right away. Your father needs to be informed of your plans, too, as it affects his life and livelihood and home and he has a right to know.

I'm so sorry you are living in such a difficult situation in a cramped house with elderly parents, two grown daughters, all those dogs and cats and birds. That many people and animals in one small house must be crowded, and with your mother's bed and potty chair in the livingroom, it makes for a really hard life for all of you. I can understand you wanting to make a change. Are you sure your new boyfriend can afford this big house? Has he qualified already for such a house? You say he is "well off" but also that he works as a first responder six days a week. Even in NYC, their pay would not qualify for the sort of house you are dreaming of, but there may be more to the story we don't know.

You are in a hard spot because you and your girls care. What happens when your daughters meet someone? Are they getting paid? What about their futures? It is very hard to see past things when you care. Parents have got to have their life how they want it no matter how dysfunctional its been. Why can't you have you happy story. You have all helped so much and should feel proud of what you have done. I went to caregiving classes. Major thing I learned most caregivers have health issues or die before the people they are caring for do. Why? Because its too much for an extended time. I went to therapy also. It helped me see beyond the fog that I had to take care of my dad because nobody else would. Where my dad lives he gets money to hire his own home health care, but he runs people off. What I've had to learn we ALL have choices. When we makes choices others don't like that's our choice. I don't like what my dad does and he knows it but its his choice. I've made healthy suggestions and laid out the info and he doesn't want it because he can't have control. If I would just cone back and do it all that would work for him. I "ran off" and got married at 35.  I live 2hrs away, but still go at least once a month. I have had to fight for balance for time with My husband and kids because its important too. My brothers can't help and won't help.But they get $ from dad. That is his choice. He gets mad at me when I don't agree with what he is doing. I tell him its his choice. We are all codepentents, enablers, and we can only change ourselves.  Go to the Aging for your state see what programs they have. Meals on wheels programs. Nurses and PT that come to the house. I let my dad know what I could do and what I won't do. I still have hard times, but its better for me. My health has improved. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink. Your mom could help herself by doing band exercises to build strength, but why do that and loose you brushing her hair. I've told my dad he can do band exercises. Not what he wants. Have the doctor write a PT prescription, but nope he wants us to do it his way.  I've told my dad even though I'm able bodied I have to want to workout and find something that works. I can't blame others that I can't do it.  My dad is being evicted landlord wants to sale, my dad won't even consider a wheelchair apartment. He can't take all his things. Things he doesn't need. I am understanding that its hard to change. Nobody can force another to do things. Even if she moves in with you, she won't do things to help herself. Does she have a doctor you can talk too? Is she still mentally capable? Does the doctor know she is giving $ away? She is prime for a money scam. And would you expect your girls to do this for you? Help is one thing, but found my it all. I will not put my sons through this. That made me realize the parents don't really care about their adult kids. Only what they want when they want it.  I wish you all the best. Its never easy and no one answer fits. Best wishes to you and your girls! And congrats on you guy and happiness! Keep fighting for your happiness. 

I was sole care provider for my mom and I am thankful that I was able to do it for her. I actually wish I did more now that she is gone. I was very fortunate that she didn't need the amount of help so many others have to do. That is sad that siblings won't lend you a hand. If you can afford to maybe you can put her in an assisted living for a respite. If she is able to take her to visit the siblings. Gives you a break and lets them see what you have been doing for her. Even if you stay with them, you can at least go some places in their towns.

Everyone is telling Catmomma to put the mother into NH, which is certainly the best, BUT here is what I have learned. If mother is not declared mentally incompetent, and can speak for herself that she wants to stay in her home, she can legally lay in her own waste and nobody can force her to move out of her house. Not without going to court and trying to gain guardianship, which is both EXPENSIVE ( which the daughter does not sound like she could afford) and time consuming.

Catmomma, I think you have to take baby steps. I know because I have been in a similar situation. My mom has a "challenging" personality, and I am the only one willing/able to step in to help out Like you, I can acknowledge her challenging personality. Like you, I don't feel comfortable just washing my hands of her. The key is to find some sort of middle ground. Your daughters should not be part of what is really your problem. As others have said, they have lives and should not have to be burdened. I have no answers at this moment, but I do think you have to hit that middle ground that works for you. Posters, I think it is a little much to expect someone who has been so enmeshed just do a total 180 and basically wash her hands of her mom. Catmomma, can you come up with some baby steps? Again, I would suggest as step 1 to help your daughters extricate themselves from her care. Hope this helps a little.

in reply to catmomma, taking care of a parent , caretaker is quite a job, my two brothers and myself took care of mom after her first stroke which she recovered super physically from but the dimentia which snuck in there was a trip, which really made it nuts, but having a medical background myself we decided nursing home would b the ultimate last alternative, when she started to need to b on oxygen and ultimately had a second stroke which really made her on her way out slowly, needed a food tube it was nursing home time, but we never regretted the decision to take care of her at home till the time came when it was no longer possible, so the old saying have to know when it hold them, and know when it cant b done no more to let it go...hope that helps...

@MelissaPA2AZ

Thank you for that suggestion! Finally something good to offer that's related to my question and not the details of my personal life. That's why I didn't want to go into a big story at first but responders were asking for details and so I went on thinking the living details could give insight to my situation. I also got good advice to call the county on aging here where I live to get answers. I'm so glad that I wrote in and asked for help because some things obvious like that you overlook when you're so busy with other things. I laughed at the comment about the dad sucking the life out of the person, from one responder! We say that about my mother too that She's a funsucker, haha. Anyway I will call the veterans affairs helpline to ask what other services they offer my parents too, to help. I wondered if meals on wheels was an option as well. There are nice fifity five and over parks here for seniors and I was so hoping that she would use that seventy five thousand to buy a nice home for them both and she could have sold the house she lives in now for whatever she could get for it and bank it for them to live on. And I could get them things like meals on wheels and my dad could have the nurses and rehabilitation people come right to the home for them but she's got her own mind and her doctor says she's fine and can make her own decisions so I have to respect that and keep going.

Catmomma4321:

I do address your original concern in the post later - this IS a huge caveat for you as there could be legal ramifications if you were just to move out and leave her alone. You are likely aware of this, which is why you posted your question. If your dad is back and can provide a decent level of care, then there is less concern. In that case you could move out and just provide some minimal support and visitations. So long as she is not left alone, you do have the option to leave if that's what it comes to.

Some concerns others have brought up are certainly food for thought - these are mostly financial and what ifs...

Is dad's pension the only source of income they have?
Have you discussed this potential move with dad (is he willing to go?)
If you move in with or marry boyfriend/fiance, do you lose alimony? Usually that is a condition.
If things do not work out between you and fiance, what are your options?
If your daughters are adults, what are their plans in life?
If you make that final decision to move and give up on mom, do you have plans in place for her?
If mom/dad ever agree to move with you, is it affordable for all?
If they move, would the new house have at least separate accommodations such as an in-law suite, to allow privacy and space for everyone?
Given they move, how will their house fix/sale be handled (and would they agree to sell it?)
Given their needs and conditions will deteriorate, what plans are there for the future accommodations?

If you continue with status quo at least for now, but get better at boundary setting, many of those questions above are not as critical to consider, but should be on your list of alternatives (someone suggested making a list; putting all concerns and options down would be a wise thing to do so you have some perspective.)

Something that popped out for me in your comments can be seen in these two quotes from you:

"I don't accept it when she does it though. I usually walk away from her and let her scream."

"I warned her if she kept screaming at them and using profanity they won't stand for that they will commit her on the spot so she shut up."

These are the boundaries others speak of. If you can do this, you CAN do more of it and it sounds like perhaps it can work if you stand your ground on those boundaries. You probably would not tolerate this behavior in your girls when they were young, and this is really not very different! If she can back down in these instances, then this is your way to deal with it (ear plugs or headphones can drown her out too!) You lay down the law - this is how things will be from now on mom. You can add changes in gradually, but once in place, it stays in place. It may be hard, because she was always the mom and made the rules, but YOU have to be able to step into that mom role yourself, over her. She makes a fuss, you walk away, even if you have to go outside or away for a bit! Since mom is basically bed-bound, what could she possibly do to stop you from bringing in care-givers (the only problem there is who pays for this - if you have no control over their finances, this IS an issue. If your dad is on board if/when he comes back, he could pay for the services.) Let mom scream, moan and complain if care-givers come in - she cannot hurt them or chase them out and most of them deal with others like this, so they are used to it (not all aides deal with these types, but you could specifically request someone who knows how to handle difficult clients.)

Even if you had POA, there is no mention of dementia or mental incompetence, so suggestions by others to "place" mom and/or dad in a facility of any kind is not really an option. POA only takes effect after they are deemed incompetent/incapacitated.
They would have to agree to this kind of a move. Because you could face consequences, abandoning her/him if they choose not to move to a new place is also not an option. You *could* apply for guardianship/stewardship, however this is time-consuming and expensive, AND the competence would be a huge factor (probably get denied - consult with Elder Care attorney could help, but if a judge sees them as competent or they request it, an attorney to represent them will be assigned. Personally I do not see this as a viable option, and again, who is going to foot this bill? Stewardship *might* be possible, IF you can prove she/they are not responsible with their finances, esp gifting so much to the dead beat, but it is still going to be a difficult and likely expensive task.) The only other option would require they agree to allow you to manage the finaces - I would table that for now until you get the mom-role-reversal in place!

If you have resources located that can take over care for her/them, use them. Consult with a social worker from the hospital, her/their doctor(s), Council on Aging, any local care-giver company, etc, to determine what options there are. Be careful with care-giver companies - some will just want to get a foot in the door; check several, find out what they charge and what they provide, research them, etc. VA benefits - sounds like your dad would be covered, however what are the rules for a divorced spouse? If he needs and qualifies for services after returning home, sign him up and let mom vent all she wants - it is NOT her decision!! You'll have to be extra-supportive of dad so he does not cow to her demands. Would she be eligible for any VA benefits? I would guess not, but without asking you won't know. It is possible, if she never remarried.
Does she have any kind of income on her own? If dad agrees to move with you or to a VA facility, his pension will follow him. Other than what might be left of the 75k, what are her means of financial support? Does their divorce decree grant her any of his income? Sure, they are "pooling" it now, but if he moves away... Medicare will cover limited in-home care if mom needs/agrees to help with personal care (sounds like she needs help with many ADLs, including bathing), but it is limited both in hours/week and how long it lasts. Medicaid *might* be an option if her income is limited, but that excess money from the lawsuit might be a problem, as would the "gifting" to your brother. Although any profit from the house sale would likely end up being taken eventually by Medicaid if she qualified, given that its condition sounds iffy, who cares? If siblings are concerned about any future gain/inheritance from it, let THEM take care of it!

I also agree with others that your adult daughters need to consider their future - both near and far. Have they any schooling beyond HS? Do they currently have any kind of employment and/or special skills? They should be working towards self-sufficiency at this point. If nothing else, grandparents won't be around forever to care for, and even you and fiance won't be around forever. Without their own income to pay their own way and save for their future, as well as build up some kind of SS income, what will their long-term future hold for them? If one wants a horse, is she going to contribute to the care, feeding and expense? It is not inexpensive to have a horse (don't recall if this dream house had a barn or not, but the horse would at least need some kind of shelter, even if just a three sided affair with a roof, proper fencing, and additionally perhaps transportation, medical care, regular medicine for various parasites and diseases, a groomer, a farrier, etc - who is paying for all that if it is needed?)

So, for starters, I would work on putting your foot down, setting up MORE boundaries and taking on the "master of the house" role. Sure, maybe she owns the house, but if she is given ultimatums, she will have to choose what bed she lies in: A) allow us to care for you/dad here in this home OUR way (including getting help, which she will pay for), B) in a new home WITH HELP which she/they will contribute to, or C) the state will step in and put you where THEY decide you will go. Staying alone, bedridden is NOT an option and neither you nor your daughters will tolerate the abusive behavior (it IS known as verbal abuse, and is insidious because there are no visible bruises!) You said she shut up when threatened with committal... Have a plan in place so that if you make this threat you can follow through with it for at least a brief period to make sure she understands you are SERIOUS. Packing boxes of stuff (at least items that are not used regularly, just to give her the idea that you are moving!) Leave for extended periods, taking some boxes and the dogs with you like you are moving stuff, during the day, so she gets to see what it is like being alone (you can install cameras in non-private spaces to keep an eye on her in case of emergency.) If possible, have the cats and birds moved to an area where they cannot get to her or be seen/heard, so she will feel what it is like to be ALONE. If she gets a taste of this and can process it, she might begin to see things differently. Certainly you are never going to "change" her and her behavior, but if you can frighten her enough to tone it down and occasionally reinforce it, things might become more tolerable. At that point, especially if dad returns to the home (if possible, enlist his agreement/help with this before he returns), you can perhaps discuss future accommodations.

The situation you describe is very complicated and there are services that act as guardians at a cost for those who don't have family caregivers. If there is no family the state sometimes steps as a public guardian in cases where there is severe self neglect. I don't know the cost of living where you are but $4000 a month is actually quite a healthy income for someone who owns her own home and could allow for paying for a good amount of care.
I would strongly recommend meeting with a local geriatric care manager. They are experts who can discuss your situation and help you make a plan for your parents care. They are used to very complicated situations and often have the distance from the situation that families may not have to help look at all the options. Paying for some expert help often saves money in the long term and provides more options. One place to search for this service locally is: aginglifecare.org/
Disclaimer: I have no connection to this website/organization or anyone affiliated.

Good luck and know even though the situation is complicated you are not trapped. Your opinion and wishes are just as important as your mom's. There is likely no good answer that will make her 100% happy. Know that her having a tantrum does not mean you are doing the wrong thing.

There is an obvious solution. Have the homeless son who she sends money to, move in with her and earn his money.Then you and your daughters can escape and never look back.