Why am I financially responsible for my Mother, when she's in a SNF if she goes broke and Medicaid deems her unqualified?

Consult with an eldercare attorney who understands the regulations in your state

How deceitful can you get? Its amazing how a facility that is suppose to protect society's most vulnerable is going to use this underhanded method for monetary gain. All that "legalese" just come out with it!!

Who is your agent {Medicaid deems her unqualified} ?? Who gets mail from Medicaid, you?

I would gladly pay an elder attorney to process and medicaid applications and any NH agreement.
Or file of life documents whjich are delivered to health care facilities. hospital,nursing homes, re-hab etc include the following directtive:
IF Nursing home admission is necessary all the paperwork must be handled by Kathy Nealon our attorney 508 435 6869. (Hopkinton, MA). {she has our DPOA}

Arianne777, my heart goes out to you. thank you for sharing your story.

I signed a page that looked like that, but wasn't. It was explained to me that as POA, I am responsible for using my mom's funds to pay the NH, should she owe them anything. It was a form letter. The same for everyone. That was moot however because she has no assets left.

I would go back to the NH with the form and ask for an explanation. It may not be what you think. If it is, tell them that you made a mistake when you signed because you misunderstood. (Legally, if either party is not made to understand the contract, that contract becomes voidable.) Tell them that you are not responsible for your mom's expenses; she is responsible for her own expenses. Look the person in the eye and don't back down. In light of that, offer to get your mom to sign for her own responsibility or amend your signature to read "(your name), daughter and POA for (mom's name)." That will indicate that you signed for HER, not for yourself. and please keep us posted. Don't be afraid, these are just people who work in a nursing home office (no offense, just trying to say they have no power over you.)

My husband was admitted to a nursing home in "Medicaid pending status." My husband's social worker explained that before admitting my husband, the NH would carefully review my and my husband's financial status and estimate whether they could take the risk of admitting him. I signed for his admission because I could no longer take care of my husband. I never received a decision from Medicaid. Only after my husband's death four months later, did I receive a PAID bill from the nursing home stating that Medicaid had paid. I'm not advising anyone to take the risk I did. I had no choice. The stress of the situation took a toll on my health.

As a former admissions director for a skilled nursing facility in the state of Pennsylvania, let me share what is legal and what is not. First, if a person enters into a skilled facility for either skilled or intermediate care without a qualifying hospital stay, that person will be paying privately (out of pocket) for their care. If, however, there was an illness for which the patient was hospitalized and after a 3-day qualifying stay in a hospital, a patient is assessed for the level of care for a skilled facility, a step down unit within the hospital, transfer to a rehab facility or discharge to home with home health services or outpatient rehab. This should all be discussed by the hospital's social services department or discharge planner. To qualify for Medicare to pay a portion (up to 100 days) for skilled nursing care there must be a qualifying 3-day hospital stay or a readmission to the hospital within 72 hours after discharge. During a qualified Medicare stay in the SNF, Medicare picks up a portion of the per diem (daily rate) and the coinsurance is picked up by the patient's private supplemental insurance policy. If there is no supplemental insurance, application can be made for Medicade (or Medical Assistance) to pay the co-insurance. This requires the family, preferably a relative with POA or a durable POA, to provide financial information to MA and the facility will provide the medical information. IF the person/resident does not have supplemental insurance and does not financially qualify financially for MA, then the patient/resident is required to spend down any financial resources to pay the "tab" and that includes all expenses to provide care in addition to the per diem (daily rate). When the resident's level of care (LOC) is evaluated to be discharged (downgraded) from skilled care to intermediate care, or the skilled care has met the 100 day limit for Medicare, then the resident must pay from their own resources, until those financial resources have been spent down to qualify for MA to then pay the SNF per diem. Currently, there is a 36 month financial "look back", to make sure that no monies were transferred to a friend or relative that could be used to pay for the resident's care. This process requires banking records, tax returns, life insurance policies with a cash value, stocks, bonds, investments, savings, etc. I have experienced situations where and aunt "gave" her nephew money to attend college, but when MA does the look back, they will determine that the money gifted is to go into the equation of financial resources available before qualifying the resident for MA. In the state of PA, an irrevocable burial trust may also be set up to pay for funeral expenses,and not counted as a monetary resource to qualify for MA, as long as it is done PRIOR to making application for the assistance. MA also allows a small amount to be set aside monthly for personal items. If the resident is a Social Security recipient, any payments for Medicare part A & B will be deducted from the SS check to pay the premiums. If your mother owns her own home outright, and her care has been paid by Medicade, then Medicade will also recover the profits from the sale of the home after the person is deceased. This is called Estate Recovery. These are the types of issues and estate planning that should be addressed well before you or your loved one would require care in a skilled facility. It's a gamble that you will or will not need some sort of long term care. If you want to protect your home and assets, usually by the time you are 70 years old, your estate planning should be in place. If you have any concerns regarding the care of your loved one, or if you feel that you have been coerced into any situation that you are not comfortable with, you should contact the state Ombudsman who will investigate the situation and provide legal resolution to the problem. Also, your local public assistance office should have a brochure that will walk you through all of these steps. I hope this clarifys your questions and concerns.

Yes, it does seem if you have POA/DPOA that you are signing for your mother...meaning you are not signing for yourself! That's what POA is isn't it...you can sign certain documents on their behalf but you personally are not signing it. I would see an elder attorney too if this were me.

Good job, Lamama!

I found written documentation supporting that I do not have to sign for her debt. So, I called the facility the next business day and said I wanted to have the contract resigned by my Mother. They said the papers had to be signed- for her to be admitted, but they agreed to have the whole contract resigned once my Mother is there. I followed up with an email, so I would have proof of our agreement to resign. I hope this works out and will know more tomorrow. The holiday messed things up!

lamama, You must sign, as the DPOA, but you must always and everywhere write DPOA after your signature. That is how you protect yourself. Even when she goes broke and you apply for Medicaid, you sign the application and write DPOA after your name.

If I'm in a situation in which I'm asked (or told) to sign something with which I'm not comfortable, I say that I want to discuss it with my attorney. Unfortunately, that usually provokes panic and the other party states that everything has to be signed today, etc. Then I say, "well, I guess we won't be doing business with you" and prepare to leave. Then that usually provokes a backing off position, but it's still an iffy gamble.

Unless you added "pursuant to DPOA dated ....., 20xx" after your name, I would think you're liable. Why is it done? To ensure that someone's on the hook for their costs.

As others have suggested, I would read the rest of the application/contract today, see what the cancellation terms are, and cancel it ASAP, but also find another place as quickly as you can.

Or you could state something to the effect that you were under pressure when you signed and didn't realize that you would be committing for her care, personally. But since then (a) don't have the resources to pay, (b) you have consulted an attorney, and (c) therefore (and this is important as well) you would be committing to perform actions for which you lack the financial resources. I believe there's a financial "lacking capacity" legal construct that would come into play in this situation.

This could actually be construed as not having the requisite legal intent to honestly execute the documents since you knew or should have known that you couldn't pay for the care. It might even be construed as fraud.

Tell them that if you have to; it might shake them up.

Alternately, ask them what other methods of payment exist since you personally have no way of paying for the care.

First I would carefully read what I had signed. The wording should be exact and means exactly what it says. Think of how it might apply in your situation. If your mother's money should last for a while, it may not be immediately important to you. I would say to use your own best judgment on this one. Let us know what happens, lamama.

Quoting one of my favorite contributors to knowledge network groups
Attorney at law Kevin P. Keane:
"agreements not reduced to writing, are NOT worth the paper they ain't written on."
ANY changes to agreement get them in writing
You or they sign an agreement you/they own it.

I would find out if there is legal time period for cancelling a signed contract

lamama, I can understand how you feel as this is usually our first rodeo and we tend to trust the people handing us the paperwork to sign. I know when I was signing for my Mom for her long-term-care, as her POA, and it came to the page regarding payment, the Admin said that I would not be responsible personally for any costs regarding my Mom. Whew.

The way I look at it, if you sign LaMama/POA that means you are signing for your Mother, and not for yourself.

And I understand the "what ifs" and your concern about future payments if your Mom runs out of money. Right there "runs out of money" should help your Mom qualify for Medicaid.

WHY DID YOU SIGN IT?? I know why you did, but it's so important for everyone to understand that, when in your position, you REFUSE to sign it other than as POA for mom, so that its MOM signing it.

I would talk to an attorney asap. Dave may be right. Don't admit her. Do not believe what anyone at the NF tells you. What you signed speaks for itself.

Please don't misunderstand my first sentence. That was written for everyone. We're unsure when presented with forms like that. "Omg!! What should I do???" The only answer is NOT to sign your own name unless you are prepared to pay.

YOU just signed all paperwork at the SNHF, where my Mother is being admitted next week. In the paperwork, there was a page that said I was responsible for unpaid amounts ----

You are now financially responsible for your Mother, when she's in the SNHF if she goes broke and Medicaid deems her unqualified

Maybe the choice is getting her into a different NH and not signing your life away

I think you need to clarify (both in your head and for the facility) that when you sign " Jane Smith as POA for Doris Jones" it's as though your MOTHER is the one signing, not you as Jane Smith.

Is is possible for your mom to sign this paperwork herself, even with a scribble?

Jeanne, good idea in my state it is any contract can be rescinded within 48 hours. I would do it in writing and send certified mail. Email them as well so you make the state mandated time period. You should clarify if this means you personally or as Mom's agent. Being private pay it just might be that youpersonally have agreed to pay. I would definately request clarification. Even with large nest eggs people run out of money. Some facilities if that happens will work with the family of the resident to lower their rates. I looked at Mom's expenses. She has enough retirement income and savings to last approximately seven years. Then the house sells, she will be just fine if she lives to be 110 or so, that is not going to happen. I cannot imagine she will live another two years.

It is in the facility's best interest to have you sign, so they certainly aren't going to give up just because you expressed disinterest.

In some states you have a certain period of time in which you can rescind a contract. If you come to your senses the day after your "free demo" and conclude you don't really need a $2,000 vacuum cleaner you can cancel, for example. I have no idea if something like that might apply here.

Does it say you are responsible as the POA for your mother or that you are personally responsible?

Ok- bad me! I signed the page… what can I do now? Ask for it back? Can they retract my Mother's acceptance into the SNHF if I say I don't want to be responsible? This really makes me mad- because I expressed my disinterest in signing off on it.

Why are you financially responsible for your mother? You aren't -- unless you sign something taking on that responsibility.

I had to sign something like that - I am DPOA. While I wasnt thrilled about it we were in a bind and had a small window to get mom moved from AL to NH. Her place is private pay only so I thought that might of had something to do with it but maybe not? At this time moms got a decent nest egg so I'm not overly concerned.

No! Do not sign anything that says you accept personal responsibility for payment of any of her expenses. Some nursing facilities will try to get you to sign these things. If you do sign the papers, then legally you will be responsible. You are not personally responsible unless they try to call in the filial responsibility laws that many states have. Most states with these laws do not currently enforce them.

Did Medicaid tell you why she could not qualify?