Wondering about taking your elder into your home?

And this from FindLaw.com, a legal service affiliated with Reuters:

"Older adult abandonment is the purposeful and permanent desertion of a vulnerable adult over 65. In general, a vulnerable adult struggles to maintain their physical or mental health. This is usually because the older adult suffers from mental incapacity or disability. The victim may be left at their home, a hospital, an assisted living facility, a nursing home, or a public location. The person doing the abandoning may feel overburdened or believe they lack the resources to care for the victim. Whatever the reason, one can only imagine the confusion and despair that the victim feels."

The problem with assuming care OR POA or anything like that is that when/if the senior becomes incapacitated to the extent that they cannot care for themselves, you--IF YOU ASSUMED CARE FOR THEM--cannot simply abandon them while they are helpless. You would have to go through APS or some other way to get them in care. Otherwise you have assumed care, and then abandoned when helpless.

I so agree with you Barb. Too many assume care and don't know the costs, that they should have shared living expense contracts, and the legalities involved. In my mind no one should allow a senior to move into their home until they together see an elder law attorney.

At the same time I see people assuming POA who have no idea that they must do meticulous records that can stand up in court. Ignorance is no excuse before the law.

It is sad, always, to learn too late what we should have known.

How does one go about proving someone "assumed care" for another if there isn't a written contract, PoA in place or legal guardianship?

Geaton, I don't know the answer to that. I am hoping GraceKelli posts back with what APS in her state tells her.

Grace DOES have POA. The problem, I guess, arises when someone has POA and steadfastly refuses to accept discharge of their LO when they know it's no longer possible for care at home.

It behooves all of us to recommend consulting an Elder Law attorney when you end up in an adversarial relationship with your LO and or the facility they are in.

Gracie is here. APS will be coming to see me at 4:30 today. I will update you all as soon as we have met. I am in Arizona. In my case, mother was threatening to kill herself about 2 weeks ago. I called 911. She went into a behavioral health center where the doctor told me that she has Boarderline Personality Disorder, Bi-Polar, Stage 3 dementia amongst other health issues. He stated to me that she needs to be cared for in a facility if there is not someone in my home 24/7. Both my husband and I work. Mom has no money but SS and small pension. No savings, all depleted by my brother. I was working with SW at Behavior Center and I guess he decided to call APS and report me because she was getting close to discharge. SW never discussed this with me and I was completely caught off guard that he made the call to APS. However, SW found an AL which I went to on Saturday and completed admission and payed for first month all was in line 3 days before discharge.

Great post, Barb

These situations give us plenty to think about.

Graci,

I hope everything goes well for you from here on out. Best wishes to you.

More 'taking back' than 'taking in'..

Here's the tale;
Senior 1 Able, caregiver for Senior 2.

Sn 2 health crises-acute-rehab.
Sn 1 heath crises - ongoing treatment required. Dr advises cannot continue cargiver role & to arrange Sn 2 stay in care permanently.

Sn 1 actively working to return Sn 2 home - against medical advice. Knowing they will not be able to adequately provide care.

Such strong attachment.
Yet potential for neglect.

Hello...so here's what happened. APS had scheduled an in-person visit at 430 today. By 5:00 pm, no APS, no call. I called APS Case Manager to find out if she was still coming. Completely forgot about me. She was at home and apologized and asked if we could reschedule for tomorrow. Coincidentally, it is my 37th wedding anniversary with the love of my life. Do you all think I want to be sitting with an agent of the APS at 430 to talk about how I may or may not have abandoned my mother. NO!!. I told her I was not available. We rescheduled for Friday morning at 800 am I will update you after our meeting on Friday morning:)

Hi Beatty,
I like your table...however, I technically an not a senior yet:) I will be turning 57 at the end of this month. I am still an active adult:) Who is supposed to give up my entire life, quit my job and stay at home fulltime to take care of dementia ++++ many other illnesses....for what???? Not going to do it. Sorry. Not my job.

One last thought before I sign off...Barb, the quote you posted from FindLaw.com, is very provacative. I do see my mother as a victim, one she has assumed for most of her life. When does that end? Only upon her death. I am not wishing that for her. I am only stating the facts. When people make bad choices their entire life and wait for others to bail them out, and they do (I did) it ruins lives. I can only say that I am so thankful for all the advice this forum has provided me. I made a very bad mistake, I should not have to pay the penalty with my life and that of my DH. We did our part. We married, stayed married, raised 5 wonderful children, worked our entire lives and never asked our parents for a dime...by the way, if we did, they would have said -- NO! work it out yourselves. Why...should I be responsible for my mother?? It really makes no sense. Our system is broken.

Gracie, a very happy anniversary! I'm so glad you put them off!

Gracie,

Wishing you a very happy anniversary!

Break out the champagne! 🍾 🥂

Gracie, I.was going off on a different angle..

I wish you a wonderful anniversary & also glad you recheduled. Choose Life!

For what it's worth, no I don't think it is reasonable to be financially, emotionally or in any other way responsible for other adults because of a next of kin order.

Have a wonderful anniversary, Gracie! Rude of APS to forget about you. Doesn't the worker do a calendar?

Barb, thank you for starting such an interesting thread! (In a way it's related to the "Why do people always push facilities?" thread -- seems as if facilities should be pushed sooner so that people don't find themselves in the position of being charged with abaondonment!)

I think the law is right in making this a crime:
If you just disappear and stop helping - without organizing for anyone/anything to replace you - then that’s a crime.

It should be a warning for those who are making a decision about taking on caregiving responsibilities. Often it seems to become a game of "tag-you're it!" After you are "it", don't expect much help from others or professionals in the community unless you have money. The reality though for many of us is we seem to slip into the caregiver role slowly and don't fully realize the mess we are in until it is too late.

Regarding the abandonment laws, for one, I believe most charges would not hold up in court or even go very far as long as the caregiver takes the proper steps beforehand. No, of course you can't just drop off the elder at the ER and disappear or leave someone at the fire station and drive away, just like you can't do that to an infant. But you can give an infant up for adoption, and you can give an elder over to the care of the state. It is just that there is no outlined guideline, or agency to go to, for doing that. The people who often find themselves in this position are those who are above the poverty line, not already connected with social services, but have little money otherwise and certainly not enough to pay for in home help or assisted living. There is simply no help from, or not enough help given by our society to these people. The way to avoid "abandonment" charges or having those charges hold up against you in court is to seek out help before you drop off the elder, or if LO is in the hospital, you make it clear to the SW that you are unable to safely care for the LO anymore. You clearly explain why it is dangerous for either you or LO in the current situation. You have to be proactive. You don't abandon your LO, you seek out help, and if not enough help is available, that is not your fault.

Sounds like the doctor complicated the situation. In most of these APS cases, they will usually come to your house for an investigation. My question is this: What are they actually investigating? Dealing with a mentally ill person especially bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder (no meds for this one) and third stage dementia would be too much for anyone to handle. You will be towing the line and putting your own mental and emotional health in danger. This doctor needs his head examined. Most of these doctors get on a power trip and don't take into consideration that we are not equipped to handle a person with this level of mental illness. What is wrong with people! Dealing with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder alone is enough to drive a saint to blasphemy. I had a client with BPD and Bipolar disorder and I dropped the client. There is nothing more frightening than to witness an adult having a raging outburst.

My older sister kept calling APS on me and making false reports. I had to deal with APS all the time. I got really nasty with them after awhile and stopped answering the phone because it was more nonsense. After awhile, I went and talked to an attorney. In your case, I would make a complaint against the doctor who did this and get the attorney involved.

I was in the bathtub one morning when a call came in and this nut sister of mine called APS saying that my younger sister had called to file a complaint that I had locked her in the room and refused to feed her. I laughed! I told the person that my sister was downstairs with the Home Health Aide having her breakfast. I told the APS person that my older sister probably made the call. My younger sister couldn't talk and was vision impaired. So, there was no way she would be able to call. She was very low functioning and didn't have the mental capacity to even do so. I told the Home Health Aide to pick up the phone and give these people your work number and the name of the company. I just got tired and started the process of placement for my sister, and it took three years. I secured an apartment and moved out. My dad had to leave his comfort zone in Baltimore to finish the process. My sister was leaving in two weeks for her new group home. I was in the process of moving. I got the ball rolling. I don't see any reason APS to get involved with issues that are already in process to being resolved other than to get a government paycheck. In most cases, they are useless and just tie up your time.

Most people with these disorders are eventually moved into group home settings supplied and paid by the government. Don't let APS strong arm you into taking on a situation that you are not equipped to handle. As long as you follow the proper channels of a hospitalization at a mental health ward, have discussions with the social worker and doctors involved in her care that's is all that is required of you. It's not like you just dropped her off at the doorstep and ran.

One thing I found out is just because a healthcare worker or APS comes out of their mouth with an accusation, doesn't make it gospel. They try all these tactics of manipulating innocent people for no reason.

And I must say, APS did not have a hand in my sister's placement in the group home. The faster you get your mom placed and out of your house, this should be resolved. So, when all is this is over, what is there to go to court for?

"We rescheduled for Friday morning at 800 am I will update you after our meeting on Friday morning:)"

How did the meeting go, Gracie?

Today's update: APS arrived on time this morning at 8:00 am. She stayed for about 10 minutes. She told me that this meeting was a formality because the Mental Health Facility was getting ready to discharge my mother and I informed them that she could not come back and that would be considered abandonment. However, since an AL was found this case is closed and I would be getting a letter.

I didn't get into any further discussion with her about this as it is a moot point. However, APS asked me if I considered filing for ALTCS (Arizona's Medicaid) for my mother. I told APS, that my mother is a Naturalized Citizen, (you have to prove citizenship on the ALTCS application.) My mother left all her naturalization papers at my brother's house. In order to get a copy of her naturalization docs, you have to provide alien number. That too was left at my brother's house. As was her medicare card. I told APS, that I have reached out to the DA in California to speak to my SIL's attorney to get these documents back. I have not heard back.

I then asked APS if there was anyway she could help my mother. She said no.

Well then as you all can see my mother's life is a hot mess. One I really don't have the wear-with-all to nativigate. My next steps...talk to my attorney and the public fiduciary office to get information about removing myself as POA and getting a public fiduciary assigned.

Gracie, I'm glad that the APS visit turned out okay!

So glad you will be resigning your POA; I suspect a Public Guardian may have the wherewithal to compel your brother's compliance.

Graci, YOU won't be getting a public fiduciary assigned. THE STATE must do that. Don't step in; don't interfere. ONLY resign. At that point the state will say your Mom has no one to act for her. They then will have to do what they do. It is the COURT that appoints a fiduciary. At the point you resign it is ALL OUT OF YOUR HANDS. This isn't something you can do half way, still having input. You either do it or you resign it. After you resign they will appoint people and you just "play dead". You thereafter aren't responsible whatever they do.

Oh Alvadeer, thank you so much for this advise. Why is the SW and APS lady telling me to apply for public fiduciary??? The way you stated it, I can just revolk my POA and be done with it. I really like that method.

Grace, what does your lawyer say about resignation of POA?

You want to do this in the proper way for your state so that it isn't construed as abandonment.

By the way...thank you all for the lovely Anniversary wishes. DH and I had a wonderful evening...however, late last night, I recieved a VM from mom. She was crying and carrying on about needing her cell phone and cried oh...my chest hurts please call me, I need my phone, I love you.....This is all part of my mother's manipulation.

I sent the Manager at the AL an email explaining that her cell phone got lost in the shuffle between facilities and that I put a flip phone in her purse with charger and added the numbers I had that she would want. I also told her that I was working on getting a new iphone for her.

Today, I got a message from Manager that my mom wanted several other friends numbers (that I don't have), my brother's number and my dad's number. She also asked if my mom can have a small cash allowance for her daily diet coke. (I guess her chest no longer hurts!)

I sent my brother and dad's number to Manager and told her my mom has $15 in her wallet, in her purse and an atm bankcard with $200 on it.

She's been in facility for 2 days and already I am running around for her. This has to stop and with Alvadeer's advise. I am dumping all responsibiliy of being her POA for all things.

First of all, the OP did not abandon her elderly, mentally ill mother. She could not provide the level of care her mother requires.
So other arrangements were made for her.

I do not see how there could be any law on the books in The United States or any civilized free country where a person is legally obligated to indenture or enslave themselves because an elderly family member needs a caregiver.
Or that they would still be obligated to provide this care even though it may put the health and safety of either themselves or the elder in peril.

Absolutely preposterous.

ANY lawyer would easily be able to skirt such a law for a client in such a situation.

Thanks Scampi1 - great information. It is over, I have no idea why they needed to tell me "in-person" that they were closing the abandonment case but she said she needed to. Whatever. She told me that she was sending me 2 closing letters. I said 2? She said the other one was for the first case that was opened by my mom's doctor's office the week before (I had forgotten about that one). That one alleged self neglect and mismanagement of meds.

I had already met with the APS prior to my mom's meltdown that ended her in psyche facility. Mom refuses to shower and refuses to allow me to manager her medication. She shouted at the doctor in the office "I MANAGE MY OWN MEDS!!!!" I am sure that prompted their call to APS.

I asked APS rep the first time she came to speak with me - what should I do?? My mother doesn't want to shower- should me and my husband physically pull her into the shower? NO. We aren't going to do that. I asked what she thought I should do if she refuses to shower or refuses to let me manager her meds. APS had no answers for me. I told APS during this visit that I can't provide the appropriate care for her she needs to go into a facility.

Then meltdown happened and a miracle happened - AL was found!!! yay me!!!

RE: POA, I will definitely call attorney on Monday and find out exactly what MINIMUM LEGAL way I need to do to resign POA when there is no one else to handle my mothers financial or medical needs and not be charged with elder abandonment again.

@gracie

You need to STOP! I am very surprised that the facility didn't recommend that you not communicate with your mother for a couple of weeks so she can get acclimated to her new environment.

Please, do not take her calls or talk to her for a couple of weeks. Believe me you are not doing her any favors by jumping to do her bidding the second she starts crying or commanding you to do so.
She will never acclimate to the new AL if you keep doing this.
You are enabling her behavior and should stop right npw.
Communicate with the director of the facility for the next couple of weeks and they can give you updates on your mother.

Wait a couple of weeks then discuss turning POA over to the facility or they can help find a conservator for your mother.

@Burnt,
Please know, I am NOT communicating with mommy dearest only to the AL Manager. My actual plan was NOT to make contact with her at least for 6 months just for the reasons you outlined. However, I do want to be cooperative to the AL so that mommy dearest doesn't get kicked out and APS comes knocking on my door. But, as I understand it, even if mom decides to throw a mega meltdown, I am not on the hook, the AL, SW and APS will now be "IT" and they will have to handle without my help. Isn't that right!

So glad the meeting with APS went well, Gracie!

Just one more thing to cross off your list -- getting rid of that POA!