Getting POAs without a lawyer—any advice?

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Getting POAs without a lawyer—any advice?

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Mom is declining fast and we need to do this while she still is cognitively able. We cannot afford a lawyer. I know it is the best way, but the fact is we do not have the money. If someone knows of very lost cost avenues to obtain one, please share. Otherwise, we are looking at getting notarized forms but my mom is in hospital at the moment and will most likely go back to a rehab facility until hopefully she is well enough to move back with family.
How difficult is getting a POA done when someone is in care without a lawyer?
Does anyone know if a witnesses can be present remotely?
Is it challenging to get a letter of competency?
Thanks.

Cognitive Decline Elder Law Forms & Documents Power of Attorney (POA)

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I hired a traveling notary to come to my parent's apartment and notarize the POA documents I downloaded from the internet and printed out myself. No lawyers were required at all. Witnesses have to be live and in person however, as far as I know. I used both these Medical and Financial POA forms for 8 years with NO issues whatsoever, by the way.

You can Google "Download POA forms" and "Traveling Notary in your city" and see what comes up.

I have no idea how challenging it may or may not be to get a letter of competency; it all depends on how willing your mom's doctor is to write one out.

Good luck!

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P.S. I got the advice to download the POA forms from the Elder Care Attorney I went to for advice in general about a TON of different things I was facing with my elderly folks at the time, by the way. HE was the one who told me a lawyer was not necessary for simple POA forms to be filled out. I live in Colorado; the forms were not specific TO Colorado; they are generic.

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I expect that the requirements vary by state, so, as always, if you want legal advice you can rely on, consult an appropriate attorney.

You can get a NOLO Press book from your local library and help your Mom do a "do it yourself" POA, then have a mobile notary com to your Mom for the signing.

I am not familiar with letters of competency, but you could ask your Mom's doctor(s) if they are.

You could also ask the hospital social worker(s) if they have any suggestions about the POA. If anyone knows if there is a lawyer that does reasonably priced "house calls" for POAs in your area, it would be them.

Is there a concern about someone challenging the POA? It doesn't sound like there is a lot of money to fight over, but maybe there are contentious family members? If there are likely to be problems, you should at least find out what a lawyer would cost before ruling it out. If you just need a POA so you can deal with bureaucratic forms not involving you having access to her money, I would expect a challenge to be unlikely.

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Unless as in my situation your parent become hostile toward you, they can revoke the POA’s . Surprised me

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Hospitals and like facilities usually have a notary in-house that you can request. I downloaded the appropriate forms for my state through Legalzoom.com. They have attorneys online that are versed in each state's laws. I'm an only child and my mom is single, so there would never be anyone who would contest my DPoA. If you are very sure no one would contest your mother's PoA choice, then online forms are fine. Do encourage her to opt for "durable" and give broad powers to manage her affairs. Rocketlawyer.com also has the downloadable paperwork for her state.

Using a certified elder law attorney is of course, preferable, but the sources I mentioned above will do as a last resort -- better than no PoA at all.

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Some states have standardized forms that can be downloaded. I've never read any of those forms, but I'm thinking that they're prepared by state attorneys, including in the AG's office, and would be reliable, although not tailored to specifics. One problem with other online sites is that you have absolutely no idea how current the forms are with state and/or legal requirements.

During a search for home care for my father, I found an outstanding company, with forms that were more realistic, thorough and appropriate than some of the online sites.

I've used NOLO in the past for other uses, and felt it was reliable, and actually backed by real attorneys, not just online lawyers. And yes, there is a big difference.

As to your specific question:

1. How difficult is getting a POA done when someone is in care without a lawyer?

A lot depends on whether you're already familiar with estate planning attorneys, your area, amount you can pay, pro bono attorneys, etc.

You might want to contact your county or state bar association, or research online, for pro bono estate planning (which covers the span of documents and issues), firms which provide services gratis. Some law firms also specialize in very reasonably priced documents, and they're good ones. Not all law firms are though.

And some of the big silk stocking firms also allow their attorneys to provide limited pro bono work.

2. Does anyone know if witnesses can be present remotely?

I've never heard this question raised, but it actually defeats the purpose of witnesses, who need to observe signatures as documents are being signed. Sometimes they need to provide identification as well, to verify who they are.

If documents would be signed at a hospital, or rehab, the attorney would most likely bring witnesses from her/his firm. In our case, I needed a quick set of estate planning documents when my sister's cancer metastasized more quickly than expected.

A top attorney for whom I had worked came to the hospital, gathered required information, had the docx prepared the next day and came back the following day for execution.

My father brought witnesses from his church, and the documents were executed in the hospital.

3. Is it challenging to get a letter of competency?

Can't speak to this; I've never been in this situation.

It would help to provide your general living area, or area of the hospital if it's different. More specific information could be provided on pro bono law firms (or organizations, including some law schools).

Some law firms also provide packages, more reasonably priced than law firms that cater to "individuals of high net worth".

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My worry here is the uncertainty whether Mom is competent to do a POA. A witness and a notary only attest to that being her signature. If this is about getting someone to do a POA who may not be competent I am worried. I was so glad to have attorney-done POA that was airtight, because many entities went over it with fine-tooth comb. I know many have been "just fine" without an attorney and with online forms. I would be afraid to do that because once you need to implement it yourself it is too late to get it fixed up.

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I got the DPOA and DMCPOA off of my states Attorney General website.

The hospital provided the notary and witness.

They served as my legal documents until he died. Only the bank gave me a hard time but, honored them.

Honestly, I don't think anyone needs to spend hundreds or even thousands on these forms when the state AG provides them free of charge. Doesn't get more legal then the AG, they even have the state statutes listed on them, in case anyone questions the validity.

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Most hospitals in California do not allow any staff to act as witness to any document. None I ever worked in allowed even Social workers to do this, but they did arrange for volunteer notaries to visit. I had to have one when my brother was hospitalized, also. Lovely man, would accept no payment.

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One big problem with DIY [do-it-yourself] legal documents is if one word is missing or misplaced, it can change the whole meaning of the document.

I would suggest you contact your local Council on Aging and see what they suggest who can help you with a POA and other legal documents.

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That's why you only use this resource if you are absolutely certain no one else has any vested interest in possibly contesting it. It won't matter to anyone except the principle and the PoA. The principle needs to trust their choice of PoA. Again, these sites have actual attorneys practicing in each state available to answer questions. It is not a vending machine.

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I read above that you're not sure if your mom is competent to execute a POA. For what it's worth, my dad was deemed incapacitated by his neuro and I realized I needed a POA (everything happened so quickly after his wife died from Covid complications). I contacted an attorney and made him aware - he told me to bring him in and if he knew who was and was having a "good day", he'd be okay in executing a POA - if not, he'd have to turn us away and we'd need to do it another day. Thankfully, dad was having a good day and we got it done - AFTER 2 doctors signed off on him being incapacitated. That day, dad knew his name, date of birth, my name and the nature of our relationship. He answered yes and no questions related to the POA and affirmed that he wanted me to handle his financial affairs. It wasn't really too extensive, but enough to deem that he understood the reason for the visit.

I'd really urge you to go through an attorney - ESPECIALLY IF, your mom's mental capacity is in question. If not handled in this matter, the POA can easily be contested. I covered my *$$ in having an attorney (read: Third Party), who could attest to dad's mental state on the day he signed the document.

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If you are worried about cost, do a google search for a legal aid society in your state. There are bunches of free legal aid for seniors or those who can’t spare the money to hire an attorney. They help with simple matters (such as a POA). They may take longer than downloading a generic form from the internet but they are legal professionals (paralegals, law students, lawyers).

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Talk to the hospital social worker or case manager about your concerns. There is probably a lawyer that will do pro bono work in your case.

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I have seen many discussions related to POAs but none discussing that a regular POA is no longer valid if the person who issued it becomes incapacitated. What is needed — and is now allowed in most states — is a Durable Power of Attorney which will have specific language that it does not terminated on incapacity and should refer to the specific state statutes. If trying to do this without an attorney, find where your State’s statutes are posted online and search them for the words Durable Power of Attorney. You can also search online using the phrase “[your state] durable power of attorney”

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Our health insurance company has some help with services like this. Also the local university has an eldercare service where you can ask questions and get help. You may want to look at these avenues and ask the social worker. Also your local agency on aging may have some ideas.

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Hello Blur24.

I can only speak from a UK point of view, but it may be a false economy not using a lawyer.

In the UK we have to apply through a government website for a POA, which has a set fee per application. If your application is rejected, you would have to pay again to do another round. Apparently the pitfalls are many and applications are turned down for the smallest of reasons.

The benefit of having a lawyer is that they have experience to know how to do a watertight POA, and will make sure it would stand up under any challenge or legal scrutiny.

This may not be of much help but you may also see whether you could pay by credit card, giving you longer to pay off the bill.

I've struggled with arrangements for my father who has dementia - because he refused point blank to have a POA and now has no mental capacity - and our lawyer has been worth her weight in gold!

Best of luck getting it sorted.

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Our doctor’s office provided a packet that contained POA forms & other fill-in-the-blank healthcare related documents that could be used. I also searched our state’s website and found forms. They were very similar. Neither required a notary, just a witness (recommended two on some forms). There were certain restrictions on who could be a witness though. We filled the forms out at home, took them to church with us and we & our witnesses signed them over coffee. Done. So far, no one has refused to accept any of the forms.

The packet also contained worksheets for obituaries, wills, funeral wishes and information that people would need to know upon death (life insurance policy info, safety deposit box location, etc.)

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where I live you can get “traveling notaries”. They will come to you. You can try that once you get the paperwork.

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It is a relatively easy process, and you don't need a lawyer. First: Decide who is willing to accept the responsibilities of being designated as POA. Dual, or co-POAs will cause issues as stressful situations present, and opinions differ. You can obtain the document applicable for your state either online or an office supply (staples, office depot) that carries legal documents. Make sure it covers all areas, medical and financial. Select document to be effective date notarized. Have the required number of witnesses and your mother sign document in presence of a Notary who will sign and list their confirmation and authorized seal. Many libraries have a Notary on staff, and there are traveling Notaries that will come to your location. I had one come to the hospital. Hospital staff can't witness but I got a couple visitors in facility to witness. Have several copies made and file original with your county office. The POA should contact social security to have an authorized representative on file, your mother may need to sign a form. Check with your mother's bank as many do not recognize POA. This is all based on your mother being recognized as competent to give consent. Otherwise, you may have to apply to the court system, where someone will be appointed as her legal guardian for medical and financial issues.

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My family was able to get a free attorney and POA documents done by an attorney at our local Legal Aid Society. Check to see if your city/state has one.

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The hospital social worker probably has the forms and you can hire a notary that will come to you. You will also need a couple of witnesses which witness and sign. The hospital may be able to help with that.

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Join legal shield, get everything done, then quit them as soon as you are done if you want. All under $50. Blessings

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My mom’s bank told me to pick up the forms at an office supply store. They have all kinds of legal forms (who knew?!). We filled the out at home, except for signatures, and went back to the bank for notarizing. The bank put a copy in her file, and we got a copy. This document has been used many times (and accepted) in the past few years since she’s now in assisted living. I think the packet cost less than $20. ten years ago. I would start by asking her bank if they have someone who would come to her.

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Do an online search for POA forms from your state and print out. Just complete and notarize. No fees.

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We also found the forms online and downloaded the POA; we then had a friend witness the signing and notarize the document. Afterwards we made copies for the bank, doctors, SNF, etc. It was pretty easy to do. Good luck!

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We used an Arizona State Certified Legal Documents Preparer.

She did Medical Power of Attorney, Financial Power of Atoorney & Wills. All for a few hundred dollars.

Every state should have trained & certified document preparers

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Depending on the state you are in, you may look to see if there are any free or low-cost legal clinics in your area. Many law schools offer clinics as well. It is best to have one done by an attorney to ensure the Power of Attorney gives your mother's agent the ability to do Medicaid planning if she needed it in the future. Without those particular grants of authority, you may end up having to get guardianship which will cost much more.

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I went online and downloaded the documents. I then had Mom sign them along with two witnesses. I have had no trouble with anyone not accepting them. I am in the state of Texas. Hope this helps. Witnesses are just as good as using a notary. I don't know why people always think you have to use a lawyer for everything. I wrote up my own divorce papers and a judge signed them. I then filed them at the courthouse. People can do so much more than they know! Good luck!

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You are giving WRONG advice! "Witnesses are just as good as using a notary." Witnesses are IN ADDITION TO notarization (in Texas).

"We often hear the question, 'does the Power of Attorney need to be notarized in Texas?' The answer is yes; the document and any changes to it should be formally notarized. Once these steps are completed, Power of Attorney is validly granted."

Source: https://kretzerfirm.com/power-of-attorney-in-texas-everything-you-need-to-know

Please refrain from giving legal advice on this forum if you're not a practicing attorney.

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I strongly recommend creating at least 2 or more original copies (ie: 1 original copy for each PoA and 1 for the principle) and definitely checking with your state to see if a notarization is required, and who can be a valid witness, how many you need.

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Geaton, this was standard practice at one of the law firms where I worked. They're executed in the same manner as the original, but stamped "conformed copy".

When they prepared my father's estate plan, I was given 3 -4 (don't remember for sure) conformed copies of every document Dad signed. It was a lot easier when I had to provide them to various entities, although some were unfamiliar with a "conformed copy".

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I needed an addendum created to my moms will. I was able to have it notarized by a notary who also supplied the witnesses. I was in another state. I looked on the county website for aged and disabilities, found the notary there. She went to my moms Assisted living.

My personal POA, durable financial POA , and will I did from a website , had them notarized at the bank.

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I printed the documents, then had them notarized at the Fed Ex store.

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That's what I did, but bought a pack at Office Depot. Used them with my aunt, mom and dad and they worked just fine. I'm not even sure I had them notarized. Just signed and witnessed (but I'm in Alabama and other states may be different).

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If you live in NY, the state provides formal form on the state's legal document website for both POA and Heathcare Proxy. Google for the info. I copied and pasted the form in a MS Word. Good luck!

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Most states You don’t need a lawyer. Check by Google Durable POA your state. If so It’s pretty simple process. Can complete, print on your own and have two unrelated witnesses sign off (a trusted neighbor or friend-they are witnesses to you signatories nothing more) Also Local senior centers usually provide free notary services to their members and help with all documents.

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At 81 and of sound mind I find the advice in response to the original question confusing. In 2006 I prepared with my attorney will, health care directive, POA designations. Then and now my two adult children will share all “powers.”’By now I find are a few changes are needed. They know and agree with my decision to donate my body to the local medical school for example. I’ve purchased a pre-need cremation agreement as well if my body is not accepted by the medical school. My estate is both small and uncontested. I’ve designated them in writing as co-beneficiaries on all accounts to be liquidated when I die. I’ve also designated them as co-POAs for health and finances. Question: what obstacles will they face if I fail to have updated documents signed by witnesses and notarized. We live in MN.

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I cannot think of anything you have left out, from what you say. It all sounds well taken care of. I can't imagine any obstacles your children would face. I guess that is always the problem. No one sees an obstacle until it is right in front of us. You have talked with your children, done a POD on accounts, given POA for care if you should need it, made a will. You have covered the bases I can think of.
As to updates, they must be witnessed and notarized when you do them. Can you tell us what updates you are considering other than the body disposal you have already taken care of? That need not be in your will.

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