Have POA, do I need Dr. confirmation of incapacity to use it?

My brother has his dad's and step-mothers POA's, both financial & medical. His name was added to their checking account and savings, he is handling everything for them, paying all their bills and so on. They are not declared incompetent. Keep good records, only spend her money on her, you will be fine.

Read the POA, it will clarify if there are requirements for it to become effective.

However, if she has not been declared incompetent, and that requires a judge, she can still do as she pleases and you don't have any recourse.

Try to get her agreement with everything that you do on her behalf and keep good documentation about what you have done and what her money was spent on if you spent it. Keep all receipts and make copies of ones that fade. This protects you if there are ever any allegations of wrongdoing.

Your POA responsibilities are to do for her as she would do for herself if she was of sound mind, you can't force her unless her safety is at risk.

Good luck, this is a difficult time when you see the mental decline but they don't or won't and others tend to believe the elder.

Yes, as someone said, read the language of the document carefully. My POA was very broad in scope and there were no triggering mechanisms. I was told that was unusual when I had a lawyer look it over.

as a practical matter, most banks and medical people hardly glanced at my poa. They’d make a copy for the files and most of the time hospital personnel just asked if I was the medical poa, I’d say yes, and we’d proceed with whatever had to be done.

I did have trouble with one bank bank who would not accept my poa. They were total jerks.

So POA and DPOA are two different things, in some states (like my mom's) they are linked so a POA becomes durable (DPOA) when criteria is met and other states the choice is made (usually suggested by attorney probably) to write it as a combined or do both. But the point is with POA you are able to do everything your mother is on her behalf when it comes this stuff so yes you can just make those adjustment's, however if your mother doesn't agree with the steps you are making or can't be brought around to see the reasoning, you can't go against her wishes. You really should be consulting with her or at least telling her what you have done on her behalf. If and when the time comes that she is insisting on things that really are harmful or simply can't be consulted anymore and a doctor agrees she can't make decisions for herself and or the parameters are met for the D (durable) to kick in you can then start doing things she doesn't want that you feel are in her best interest.

For now since you are her POA and it sounds like she is still somewhat self sufficient just not capable of always sticking up for herself and needs some guidance I would approach it the way we have with my mom. We consulted her on everything at first, well informed her of our plan to get her blessing and very quickly she lost the need to be informed on "everything". My brother takes care of her banking and bill paying, she has access to one account with her Debit/credit card and he keeps a minimum in there so he can keep an eye on the spending. We have all of her mail now going to his house so she only really get's the stuff we give her. Now there is some mail that get's through, some junk mail but not enough to be a problem. She uses her cell phone rather than the house phone now and we have it set so that the only calls that ring through are the ones from us, her sister and her brother, all the rest go through to voice mail and she has given up trying to get messages. We review the calls and messages to see if anything is important but we have all the import calls, doctors offices etc coming to us rather than her anyway and she likes it that way. I say this only for ideas but as long as you do it in a not threatening and more helpful way your mom will likely adapt and maybe even be relieved to let you run things. There are bound to be things she digs her heels in about even though you don't agree, with mom it was setting up her pills for one...and you have to be willing to say ok and let them make their mistakes, pick your battles so to speak and try hard not to let it become a battle. Easier said than done to be sure but know you are doing such a service and such a loving, caring thing for mom and she knows it too. Just do all you can to give her the feeling of control, at least in my experience it's when they feel out of control that things start to go sideways. Control is happily turning responsibility over remember and that happens easier when they trust you will keep them in the loop when they should be or anytime they ask. Understandable, they are adults and they are our elders/parents, deserving of being respected as such. IMHO

Vali53, I read your response to Isthisreallyreal, and it concerns me that at some point, Mom could get herself in some real trouble. Society is rife with scammers and other unscrupulous riffraff nowadays. If Mom’s computer usage, phone calls and mail are not carefully watched over until the deed is already done and you find out about it, it could wind up costing her thousands. You know these scammers and their like are very well versed in making it so that they’ve covered their behinds and it makes getting out of contracts and promises extremely difficult. Take this new app that has no purpose other than showing people what they might possibly look like when they’re old. How many have realized there’s a monthly subscription fee and cancelled it? Real fun until your credit card starts getting billed some ridiculous fee every month and getting out of it is just about impossible. All I have to do is look in the mirror to see “old age”.

Time to have an adult to adult talk with Mom. Don’t fear her wrath. Be honest and tell her that the way things are nowadays, even young people are taken advantage of and swindled out of lots of money. Reassure her that you’re not saying she’s not smart and/or savvy because, of course, she is, but you don’t want to see her taken advantage of.

Since you are on her account, ask the bank for a copy of the statement. I know you said you uninstalled those apps, but make sure that took care of any charges. Deleting or uninstalling an app doesn’t always cancel the account, she could continue to be charged. Get her a debit card through the bank instead of a credit card. There is no interest on a debit card as there is on a credit card. If she tries to use it and there is no money in her account, it will be declined. If the bank she uses has an app, download it. You can check transactions and balances that way.

You will have to put on your “big girl pants”and tell Mom you’re going to work together on her record keeping. Will she be irate? Oh, yes. But you stated that she does things that are “somewhat dangerous”. To me, that’s like being “a little bit pregnant”. She could at some point make a misstep that could wipe her out. That prospect in itself is worth facing her anger.

Vali, just read your post about junk mail, computer programs etc.

my mom was just like this. She did not officially have dementia but her judgement was terrible. Fell for phone scams and couldn’t resist sending money to all the BS charities. WELL THEY SENT THIS PRETTY NECKLACE! I had POA but to interven in this stuff took some fibbing and sneaky tactics. I would intercept the mail as much as possible, throw out most of the junk and grab the bills.

With this stuff you have to be creative and do whatever works

Vali, as some have suggested can you go online and find some testimonials from young people and seniors that have been taken in by scammers and use that angle to get her to think about what she is doing? This needs to be about the scum bags ability to fool the most savvy consumers and not her behavior.

I believe that you would be well within your rights to put a change of address in or talk with her mail carrier about not giving her the junk mail because it is causing some potentially dangerous situations. It use to be that when you signed up for the do not call list it stopped mail solicitations as well. Would be worth checking.

You are on the account so you can set up alerts for every transaction, you can do this on credit cards also. We use it so we know right now if something fishy is happening with any of our accounts. It is great and has allowed us to travel with worry.

Is it possible to have the doctor tell her not to take any OTC medicines and talk to him/her if she wants to try something? Maybe she will listen to the doctor. I would use the money angle, mom you have insurance, lets get this through the doc and then you don't have any expenses but your copays.

It is so hard when they buck our help and don't want to have any interference, I get it, but sheesh.

I think you could slow some of these behaviors by installing a malware program, getting transaction notifications set up on all the accounts and talking to the mail carrier about junk mail and putting her number on the do not call list. You have to do it every 5 years, but you know if someone is calling they are not legitimate or they would not be violating the do not call.

Oh, and get her a credit card that only has a small credit line or a rechargeable visa.

I am sorry that she is treating you like the enemy, it is heartbreaking and oh so common. Hugs!

My husband's brother, who is not technically incompetent, had to go in a nursing home because of physical problems. At that point, the brother agreed to have my husband become his POA so he wouldn't have to deal with his finances, which were on kind of a mess and he'd been having increasing difficulty coping. Brother was consulted and gave his OK for big financial decisions (e.g., the need to sell his house, sell his car, sell a piece of land). I will say it took almost 2 years before he agreed to sell the car; he hadn't been driving, but was hoping to come home and wanted to have the car so others could drive him, as he'd been doing before he went in the NH. It was actually almost easier getting him to sell the houes, since at that point he'd been in NH over 2 years and was resigned to not being able to return home. For all other smaller stuff (bills, subscriptions, etc.) my husband just took over and brother was OK with him doing that. We discovered from reviewing his credit cards that he'd subscribed to all sorts of unnecessary and wasteful things, so it took a while to sort those out and get them cancelled. All his mail other than one magazine subscription comes to our address, and we have set up online payment for a number of his recurring bills (e,g,, cell phone, Netflix). We have his checkbook, debit card, and credit card, which was a necessity because he was being taken advantage of by some unscrupulous "friends" and some organizations he donated to.

Vali, I just had a thought, I would go to all 3 credit reporting agencies and put fraud alerts and credit freeze. This is another layer to protect her and you from unscrupulous people.

These are steps that you can take as her POA.

Vali, you can send all the mail to a PO box and sort through it before she sees the dumb ads and offers. Does she have a smartphone? You can maybe transition her to a lower function type smartphone that parents give to younger kids so that all they can do is text and you control what calls get through. Many commenters are suggesting you have a heart to heart with her as if she can respond to logic and reason but this may no longer be a fruitful pursuit. One of the difficult things in coming to grips with our LO's mental changes is understanding we may no longer be able to interact with their "old" self, as it is unproductive, but it is hard to know how much "logic and reason" gets through and sticks. You are on a day-to-day basis with her mind from now on. Good luck!

There are 2 types of POA, be sure that you have both while your mother is still able to sign forms. One type is for medical decisions and the other is for financial matters. If you have the financial POA you can take over the management of her finances, but some banks require a stronger POA and they have their own forms. Check with your bank and if needed, also get this done while your mother is still able to sign the forms. When you sign for her, put "POA" after your signature. Social Security is more strict, but as long as the social security checks are going into her account, it should be OK.
Go through the mail first, and separate out the bills and things that you have to take care of. Can you go with her when she goes shopping so that you can try to prevent unnecessary purchases?
If she is doing dangerous things, you'll have to do what you can to protect her, your home and the safety of your family. A social worker might be able to put you in touch with resources that can advise on how to make your home safer.

Talk to a attorney you are going to need guardianship if you have to make any HUGE decisions. Healthcare POA are just about worthless....speaking from experience!

I’ve had no problem using my medical POA, just make sure it’s on file with all the drs and health care system. ( scanned in) . My mother has a vascular dementia diagnosis. I emailed the last couple new drs since she still can act rationally sometimes. The one poo pooed it until she acted out during a echo, then suddenly they saw the light😂.

my sister is financial POA . She changed the mailing address on all bills to hr home address. That way my mother never sees them. She had thousands of dollars in credit due to over payments so she’s set🙄. My mother gripes she has no control but that’s another situation

The answers regarding finances are spot-on! If you have financial POA, take over the responsibility now to stop the loss, if any. I cannot tell from your name if you a male or female, but if you are female, you can pretend to be her on the phone to cancel credit cards if this is an emergency.

For medical, I think you will need a Dr to officially declare your mom incapable of making decisions on her own. There are places where you will be asked if your mom has been officially diagnosed with dementia, etc., giving you the power to make medical decisions for her. It is a bit more tricky.

Hi Vali,
I became both POA and executrix for both my parents after their strokes.Although,My dad had me named POA prior it was only for medical and only after his dr declared him incompetent.

Needless,To say I had to have wills,POA,etc updated for both.Now that my mom has passed ,and her estate has been settled.I am solely responsible for all my dad's financial and medical needs.I haven't had any pushback from banks,hospitals etc.Good luck

No, exercise of a PoA does not depend on a declaration of incapacity. Sometimes a person appoints a PoA because they're no longer mobile enough to get to a financial institution, or are blind and can't sign documents, etc. These does not have to be any finding of mental incompetence. Once the person has executed the PoA (usually this has to be witnessed and notarized) and given it to you, you may use it to act in the place of this principal. That is why it's so important for the principal to choose a very trustworthy person.

Exception: if the person who names a PoA includes in this document the stipulation that it should only be exercised in a case of incompetence, then you would need to have a finding that the person isn't mentally/legally competent.

Vali,
Check what kind of poa you have. I had a durable poa set up when my mom first starting showing signs of Alzheimer’s. Very important; some states may honor regular poa as durable, but others may not. Regular poa sometimes ends when they become incompetent. Durable means it is effective for everything even after incompetency.
I still had to fill out healthcare proxy at doctor, but they kept a copy of my poa on file and was no problem. Had all my moms mail forwarded to my house. Her bank account she already had it as a revocable trust so I could not use the durable poa there unless closing and reopening whole thing. Easiest thing was just had her go in with me and put me on as a joint account owner. So much easier and do all her bill paying online as well and autopay. That way I didn’t have to go through hoops with moving her ss payments. Just keep receipts. To change addresses and for credit cards was easier to just say I was her on phone, otherwise just a bit more time consuming to send poa forms all over the country and jump through hoops.
There is a form for designated payee or something for ss; I just didn’t do it. Good luck and many hugs..🌷🌷

IF this is something new I URGE you to take her to the Emergency Room and get cultures done, CT of the head...rule out stroke or sepsis please. You will get your documentation from the ER notes which you can access through patient portal.

Use POA when she is incapacitated..no need for doctor's approval. However, if someone contests anything doctor's documentation supporting advancing dementia would help.

I just took a class on that so and already have POA.
You can use the POA without the doctor, however, with your situation ic she is really dealing I would look into getting a Durable Power of Attorney which needs to be filed at the courthouse for your protection and her protection,
Llook up HonoringChoicesFL.com. You will find more necessary applications that will help you in this journey.
Iam not a medical professional, just another caregiver who has taken a very informative caregiver class. I recommend the Savvy Caregiver training class for every caregiver, support team willing to help. Also check out www.aarp.org/caregiving. If you're a military family go to your Veterans Administration for help.
Be sure to take care of yourself.
Hope this helps.

Hi Vali,
I'm relatively new on here, but your question resonated with me greatly, so I thought I'd share my "two cents".
As far as I know she would need to be mentally evaluated and deemed mentally incapacitated or of "not sound mind" in order for you to begin the duties of POA.
That's how it was for ME in my situations anyway with my Mother (Multiple Sclerosis), and very recently my 98 year old Grandmother who just passed.
In theory, it's a relatively simple evaluation performed by a Neuropathologist. The difficult part would be getting her consent for the evaluation without her already being in the hospital (meaning...say...she had to go to Urgent Care or the ER for a fall or any other health risk that had potentially been caused by her confusion). Does that make sense? You cannot legally force someone to have the evaluation performed regardless of whether or not your status on their will is POA.
My sister and I were both POA for our Grandmother, and we constantly worried about her and her living situation. We KNEW that she wasn't ok, and had a hunch that she had dementia and alzheimers. However, we could not make her take the diagnostic test, therefore could not assume positions of POA. However, she inevitably ended up in the emergency room for dizziness, confusion, and pain. She was THEN evaluated by a Neuropathologist because it was relevant to her reasons for being there. She was indeed diagnosed with dementia and alzheimers. But there were still hoops. After the diagnoses you THEN have to acquire the official letter from the evaluation, have it notorized, and present it to all necessary parties along with a copy of her will (or another legal document) that names you power of attorney.
We never had the chance to seek advice from an Elder Care Attorney, but after all of my recent experiences I think it might be a good idea if you're financially able to. It would probably save you a great deal of grief, and a massive headache.
I'm not a medical professional or a lawyer, blah blah. Just a regular ol' laman that has recently had to do this twice, and has had to deal with ALLL of the social workers, lawyers, medical and legal jargon.
It's painfully confusing and difficult, and I truly wish you and your mother the very best of luck (I mean that).
Best,
Hannah

No, you do not. I have durable POA & healthcare (living will) POA. My Mom goes to a senior center, I’ve applied for Medicaid for her for LTC placement & an assessment for it & In every instance, they have asked if I was POA to sign for her & asked for a copy of it. When she is placed in LTC, it will be the same, POA signs for her. My Mom is not incapacitated & doesnt have a dementia dx.

I held my mother's DPOA. There was a clause in it that made it clear that I needed to invoke it by having her declared incompetent. When I called my mother's lawyer with a question and he realized that she was no longer competent to run her own affairs he sent me a form for her doctor to fill out and sign. At that point she had been seeing a doctor and psych nurse for a few years. The doctor asked her questions about the form and when it was clear that she could not follow the conversation he filled out the form, signed and dated it. I sent a copy to the lawyer and kept the original with the DPOA. She had already been diagnosed with vascular dementia for a while. This was just a fail safe as I had already been taking care of her financial issues. If she signs anything I can make it immediately clear that she is not competent so any contract is not valid. It's just that it's clear there are scammers out there that no doubt have lists of people with their ages that target the elderly. All I had to do was look at the list of incoming phone numbers. (The police benevolent organizations are almost always scammers.) They come out of the woodwork once they know someone is late 60s early 70s. So yes, filter all the mail, close her credit cards, put a fraud alert on her credit report and keep renewing it. We had to unplug the phone or she would periodically call the police. Also look at her bank statements. My mother had been paying for an AD&D insurance policy through her bank for years on a quarterly basis. It took me a while to cancel that. Good luck to you.

You need to read the POA document and see when it gives you the powers. Your mom could have given you powers to act on her behalf once she signed the document and it was notarized or she could have given you powers for a specific time period or she could have given you powers once a doctor put in writing she no longer had capacity to make her own decisions. You will also want to review the document to see exactly what powers she does and does not give you. The take-away is that POA documents are not all alike.

Please read it. It should have language that says that change in mental incapacity will not alter it, or some such language. I forget how the language is put in mine, but was done when my brother assigned me knowing what he was doing, and states that when he does not know, the poa is not altered by that fact. It may be worth a call to his office to say that you are now going to begin to "assume your duty to manage her finances for her due to her failing death" and is there anything you should know. You may just want to take it into her bank and tell THEM that you are assuming your duty as her POA due to her failing health, and ask them how to proceed. They will let you know if there is any problem with it at all. I would echo the keep excellent records in a separate file, make copies of all checks paid, be meticulous and tell yourself that you will have to appear in court tomorrow to defend your payments; how will you do so. That will spur you on. You are acting FOR her and in her stead and in her interest. Do not make payments for anything she would not have. Do not muddy, intermingle funds.

I am in Texas and am agent under a statutory durable power of attorney for all of my dad’s affairs. The form includes allowing the POA to be named as the agent for specific areas from a list of powers (property, banking, estates and trusts, etc.) or to be given power in all areas. This form was signed by my dad and he understood what he was signing. The granting of these powers did NOT require a certification of incompetence by a physician. However, if there are other family members likely to be involved, I would be concerned that someone might question a POA and your actions if they feel that your mon did not know what powers she was signing away. Also, be aware that the POA powers end immediately upon death of the grantor; estate law takes over then, so you might want to put plans in place such as being a joint user on her bank accounts. Another thing I have found is that I could initially talk to just about any of my dad’s entities such as brokerage, insurance, etc. IF he was right there to give verbal permission; however, now that he has been living in facilities and hospitalized for a year, I have needed to send that POA to almost all of those entities. Some even have their own form for him to sign. One other thing (and I have not yet pursued this)I am told that you must go in person to the Social Security office, with or without your mother, in order to affect any interaction with her Social Security. I haven’t done anything about this because there’s no need for changes to be made to my dad’s Social Security.

A medical power of attorney is a different power, but something that you should look into. In the case of the medical power of attorney, the documents I have seen state that the powers to make medical decisions are granted “if I become unable to make my own healthcare decisions and this fact is certified in writing by my physician.” However, my daughter, who is a nurse, and I, with no medical training, have had absolutely no trouble giving a cooy of this document and then interacting with medical personnel to make basic care decisions and exchange information. In the event of more critical decisions, he also has an Advance Directive to physicians and hospitals of his treatment options, as well as an Out-of-Hospital Do-Not-Resuscitate Order for non-hospital personnel and situations.

Also, be sure to get a signed HIPAA release authority designating that her medical information, written records, and billing info can be released to you and whoever else is named.

Best of luck to you. It’s all a bit to take on at first, but, once in place, will save you a great deal of angst and time.

In my case, my POA document stated clearly that I needed a doctor's note in regards to imcompetence in order for my POA to take hold. I then took this document together with my POA document to the bank who enforced it.

There are different types of Powers of Attorney. Check with a lawyer (or do some careful Googling) and read the document thoroughly to figure out which you have. They specify how and when they can be used.

Having someone declared incompetent a whole 'nother story. It is an arduous legal procedure (as it should be).

I have medical poa and durable power of attorney. With durable i have to get documents from 2 doctors stating he's cants handle his financial affairs. But not for medical POA.

vali53;

As others said, and you plan to do, review the document to see if it specifies the need of documentation. Ours didn't specify and while I needed a letter for the federal pension, a copy of the DPOA document is all I have ever used/needed elsewhere. Getting her bills mailed (she was still living alone) was the easiest - they don't care where the bills get mailed, so long as they get paid and didn't require seeing the DPOA! I used DPOA at her main and secondary banks, but brought her with me. She just stood there rifling through her wallet and purse. No one asked anything other than for a copy.

Reading your initial post and looking at your profile, I would suspect your mother has some kind of dementia ("becoming confused, saying and doing unusual, and occasionally somewhat dangerous things" as well as "no logical reasoning/ judgment seems spotty at best...loves to set me up to fight with her.") Although that doesn't rule out your question about Parkinson's, as I understand it that would present physical symptoms long before any cognitive symptoms (there are no rules when it comes to brain issues!) Not every dementia patient has the same symptoms or time frames, but most of those issues would fall under the big dementia umbrella. I would suggest a good workup at the doctor office - other conditions can mimic these symptoms. Might as well have her fully checked and have a baseline to work with (and maybe get a letter!)

To handle the buying of stuff in the mail - if she's able to get to the mailbox, I would recommend a PO Box. A small one is fine - if something is too big for it, you'll get a notice and they will hold it. Then weed out all the sale flyers/catalogues, giving her only personal stuff or benign things (sales junk can be hidden in papers, magazines, etc too!)

To handle phone sales - you mention hearing loss, so can you turn the ring down or off, so she doesn't hear it? Also, call your provider to see if they offer any kind of scam/robocall blocking. They don't catch them all, but some of those are relentless and unbelievably scummy! I'm glad I didn't change my cell # on crossing the border - most junk calls come from the prior state, so I can ignore/dismiss them. Some from all over the country too! It is getting SO annoying, especially when they leave recorded messages, which require me to dial in and delete!

If she really wants to order something, have her work with you (I wouldn't let her hold her own CCs anyway, so she would have to.) You could say you know how they will pressure you to buy more, let me handle them!

Computer issues - I don't know the details, but they have some kind of blockers for kids. If you know any computer savvy people, ask about it. It could be a way to prevent her from doing "bad" things on the PC!

You "...would like to see if her checkbook is balancing (my name is also on it)." She lives with you, so her statements should come to you as well. Does she take them and not let you see them? Get the PO Box!

"She has never been diagnosed as having dementia, even though our family dr. sent us to a neurologist for a checkup. Neuro did nothing, made no diagnosis, just "come back in 6 mo.s"." Oh don't we just LOVE those a-holes who find nothing but say come back in 6 months (so I can bilk Medicare!) I would find another doctor. We recently changed docs, and although mom is in year 3 at MC, they tried to "test" her. Sure. My turn was a few wks later and they "tested" me!

This is reason to be concerned too, have her checked and suspect dementia: "Mom is 89, very cross with me for last year or more, and resents my help. I never know what she'll do next, and not sure how to proceed." While getting her checked, do research on dementia. It might help. I knew nothing before I saw/heard the repetition of questions/statements and some confusion, misuse of a few words, etc... started looking it up and realized we're going down the yellow brick road...

Last comment regarding "She is in a really much better mood today...maybe I'll be able to broach a topic or 2 today!" - again, this is common with dementia (and other conditions, best to get checked!), but yes, one day you can be a goddess, then next a demon! Try not to get angry, certainly don't chastise or try to contradict her, that will only lead to frustration for both of you and possible arguments. Distract and redirect her focus to something else, if possible.