How do you redirect a conversation without leading into an argument?

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How do you redirect a conversation without leading into an argument?

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My mom (78) has had two mini strokes and now lives with me. I am a mother, grandmother, full-time worker, and now full-time caregiver to a woman who believes she is getting married to a retired army general who has given her millions of dollars, has bought her a new house and car in NJ and thinks the military moving truck is coming to move her! She has been a victim of elderly abuse online for several years and has given money away to these people willingly! I now have financial guardianship which leads to more arguments! She is constantly asking me to send money to “Joe” because he has no access to his funds while in the military! We have tried several ways to try and have her understand it’s a scam, but she believes what she believes and no one is going to change her mind! The stories get more elaborate and coincide with what is going on in the world at the time! (He is now out west helping with the wildfires) She has NEVER spoke with him or anyone in person only through messenger! Any ideas?

Communication & Language Delusions Frauds & Scams Stroke

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It is hard/near impossible to reason or persuade with someone with impaired reasoning.

Unless any of that 'Joe' tale is true, this is what I'd call this.

Delusion is defined as:
a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

I'll try to find some info for how to deal with, but firstly, is this behaviour NEW?

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Can't you just say ok, mom? Then of course don't.

You cannot reason or explain to dementia. You are wasting your breath and causing you both plenty of anxiety. Just try agreeing with her and see what happens.

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Um. Is she still online? I've been astonished before now by what otherwise intelligent and worldly-wise people will sincerely believe if they see it on the world wide web. If she is, some judicious site-blocking might be a possibility, or find other, worthier causes for her to focus on.

When she isn't worrying about Joe, what else does she do and talk about day to day?

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Your mother should not be living alone, chatting online and being checked on by neighbors! With this level of dementia at play she needs either 24/7 care at home or placement in a Memory Care Assisted Living facility, especially since she's a flight risk. Terrible accidents can happen at home and/or she can walk out the front door to go for a walk and get lost. The least of your problems will wind up being Joe and what stories she believes about him today, God forbid😑

Delusions and confabulation is common with dementia as well. It's best to educate yourself about how dementia presents itself and how you can respond to your mother so the arguments can decrease as you enter her reality instead of try to change her mind about things. That's a waste of time and energy on your part.

Pick up a copy of the book The 36 Hour Day and download the 33 page booklet called Understanding the Dementia Experience by Jennifer Ghent Fuller. That's your best bet if you intend to keep mom at home. Even if you don't, you should learn about how her mind works now.

If her delusions cause mom too much anxiety, contact her doctor to see about medication to calm her down a bit.

Good luck to you

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Laus, is there a diagnosis of Dementia?

The level of delusions you mention do sound like the confabulations of dementia. Or is there a diagnosed mental illness with psychosis?

Infections can cause delerium, confusion, hallucinations & delusions too. So can a change/quick withdrawal of medication.
That's why I wondered if this behaviour was new.

I read that Mother has had 2 mini-strokes. These are often temporary, yet I think can also cause lasting damage too. I wouldn't have thought mini-stroke (TIA) would cause delusions though?

If the delusions are treatable or not is important to know.

Dealing with them may be more *emotional* than *practical*. Use 'fiblets' eg "Joe is OK. He gets very good money from his army pay" (fire-fighters pay, job d'jour etc).

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Only you have access to her money, you have access to a printer, make a receipt that he has received the money. Get her ready, pack her bags have them waiting at the door. Get some apple cider drink to the occasion. Have a party get small cake have a treat, get dressed up. Talk about what kind of furniture she will have in her new home. No need to argue. When the truck doesn't show console her and let her know you are always there. She will never understand the scam.
Prayers

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That seems like unnecessary cruelty to me. There's no need to support the mother's delusion to that degree.

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I personally couldn't live long with this. I would move to a placement situation and visit Mom when I worked up the strength. We can't change others. We can only manage our own lives in light of where they are at. Arguing with dementia doesn't work (and in fact arguing with anything doesn't work). The best way not to argue is that whenever something bizarre is said you say "Oh. Is that so?" very sweetly, and get on with it.

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I agree with you, Alva. When a person is as out of it as the OP's mother, they belong in controlled environment. A care facility where there is supervision and she wil be looked after.

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Can you block him and other abusers and sites on her device? Would she know how to unblock them? That being said, current thinking is that people have a right to make bad decisions if they are of sound mind. You need help with all that you do. Talk to your mother about bringing in help for both of you, such as household help to clean, do yardwork, shovel snow, or whatever needs to be done around the house, a caregiver for her when you are away, if needed, and if this will make things better for you. Your mother lives with you. I hope she is contributing to the household budget. If it gets to be too much for you, talk to her about moving into a senior facility, but even there you'll have to look out for scammers. Make sure all of her paperwork is in order with powers of attorney for medical and financial matters, a living will with her medical directives, a will if she has assets, and you need to be on file with Social Security and Medicare to be able to speak on her behalf. Someone who has had strokes could have another one and it's possible that she could become incapacitated. She needs to plan for that.

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You need to take away her access to social media, or a phone where these messenger posts come through. You might have to get her phone away from her while she sleeps but you have to do it. If she asks you to get her a new phone don't do it. My own mother becomes obsessed with certain ideas, eg: she wanted to change the color of my brothers casket. I told her I called cemetery and they did what she wanted. This satisfied her. You might have to tell her some kind of story too. Perhaps explain Joe is now on a secret mission and can't message her at this time. Don't let her have any way to access messenger. The scammer will eventually stop once they don't get money or communication from her. It's very difficult to dispell her beliefs in the scammer so turn it around and do not argue with her that this is a scammer because she will not hear you about it. Good luck.

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First you should file a police report in your community for fraud, have all the receipts and documents. They will open a fraud investigation. Most likely you will not get anything back but help people who are going through this.

Then change phone numbers, block phone and email. Don’t argue with her, just say ok Mom I’ll send it later today when I go the bank. And walk away. Repeat as necessary.

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What are the cops going to do if "General Joe" the scammer is off in Nigeria or South America?
Absolutely nothing.
Get the out of it mom away from a computer screen and disable her phone so there's no internet access.

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Change her passwords, set up two-step authentication, and keep track of this guy's messages if you're inclined. Turn them over to the local police, and maybe they can track him down from his IP address.

Don't argue with Mom about the new "boyfriend." Tell her you sent him money, show fake receipts if necessary, but cut off her access to this guy. Otherwise, welcome him into the family and talk to Mom about him as much as she wants.

My mother "married" her old high school boyfriend who was already long dead so we didn't have to worry about her sending money, but he became the main topic of discussion when I'd visit her. It was Dan this and Dan that for 2 1/2 years. It was tough to get used to, because my dad had recently died and he was the love of her life. Still, that fantasy companion actually helped her cope with being alone especially during the Covid lockdown in her memory care.

Consider embracing the fantasy with her, but just cut off her contact with the actual guy. Maybe write to her as him if that helps her think he's still being attentive.

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I can't imagine this woman's mother could get on the computer, websites and mange / deal with passwords. As has been mentioned, this mother should never ever be on a computer where any private information could be exchanged or posted. If she is on the computer somehow, there needs to be settings - that parents set for their children - or however these things are done so she can have fun and not cause any harm to herself or her family (giving out personal information). I can't understand if / how this woman has the mental capacity to deal with managing websites. Perhaps I missed something. Gena

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In your profile you state that you have guardianship over your mother and that she lives with you.
Forgive me if I speak plainly but, she is out of it. I hope she has no access to any kind of social media now.
If the agruments and delusions get to be too much for you, consider placement for her. She should be in Assisted Living or even Memory Care.
When a person has dementia sometimes it's okay to go along with a delusion if it makes them happy and no harm can come of it.
Harm can come of your mother's delusions if she's allowed internet access. Even if she no longer has control of her money she can tell a scammer where she lives, or the birthdates of her kids and grandkids, etc... Sometimes that's all the info a scammer needs. Who's to say you oen day you might leave a credit card or bank statement on the desk. She could easily give those numbers to General "Joe" and any other Nigerian prince working an online hustle. They can steal an identity or worse go to your home.
Be as tolerant as you can about the delusions until it starts getting argumentative. Then it's time to consider placement.

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Going along with delusion:
I tell my friend of 18+ years, who is now in a nursing home permanently, who says to me "they have a bus here that will take me home" - he cannot walk / he is bed ridden now. I say to him, "Oh, I'll check the bus schedule." Other times, I tell him the truth, you need 24/7 day and you cannot afford it (which he knows). I then say I am working on getting you moved (to another facility) which I am although this likely won't happen. I am his POA for both healthcare and finances.

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You've done everything right as far as having financial guardianship. The other response are on target too.

Other than deflecting or playing along there's not much more to do other than drugs or placing her out of ear and eye shot. I'm almost at my wit's end with crazy talk and looking for MC adult day care for bi-weekly breaks. My husband's stories have been building-up from having known Elvis to Richard Burton…("as fine a men as you'd ever want to meet").

I ask him about what they were like, what they like to eat and if he went clubbing with them. My only hope nowadays is to just keep my loved one in a good mood.

Really, from my experience and those of my support group there's nothing you can do that will change her fantasy. Bad wiring always wins. Hopefully this is a passing stage. Here's something you can try, if she can still read, and if you can't manage this, get one of your more computer savvy kids to copy and paste the Army logo on stationery and write:
Urgent from the Department of Defense Washington DC

Dear Ms (Her first, middle and last name),
We regret to inform you that you have been one of 63 women in the United States targeted for a scam by an convict name "Joe" from the Louisiana State Penitentiary.

"Joe" has criminal charges of financial fraud and must be avoided. Joe, (aka JimmyJoe, aka Joe Oscar-make it up) is also charged with illegal gun smuggling activities with Russian undercover agents on the southwestern boarder. He is considered a dangerous person and especially targets women 70 years and older.

Joe is a career criminal and wanted in 5 states. He is NOT a member of any branch of the military.

Each branch of the US Military is closely working with the FBI.

We respectfullly ask for your assistance in this matter. Any further communication with Joe must cease or be considered an admission of supporting criminal activities. All communications with Joe will be traced to protect the innocent.

Okay, I know it's silly, but I needed to take a trip.

Try to make sure she no long watches the news.

I so know it's tough. I hope you had a laugh.

Good luck and best wishes.

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That's actually a really good idea.

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How about asking for a 72 hour hold for psych eval and requesting an Adult Protective Services Counselor?

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Sounds like it is time to move her into a home, she is out of it and nothing you say will change her "lost" mind.

Me, I couldn't deal with this nonsense I would need to be an arms length away.

You have control of her finances so that is a plus, do what is right for both you & her, you have a life start claiming it. She could live for another 15 years and this will not get better, set something up now before it becomes an emergency.

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It isn't nonsense.
This is her mother.
It is painful.
It is brain chemistry changing / changes.
It is dementia.

Otherwise I totally agree with you/r comments/suggestions.

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I know someone in her 50’s basically sound mind and she believes those guys that pm through fb too. No matter what we say she believes all of them and has sent money too. So she may not be really out of it, just infatuated with the idea this guy is interested in her.

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Laus4585: Disable her social media messenger app. Perhaps your mother should be residing in a managed care facility.

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Tall to her neurologist about treatment options. It might help to say you'll contact his unit tomorrow about the issues she brings up. If pressed, tell her you called his unit and they are handling the problem. Then, change the subject.

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i assume she is hearing from/about this “Joe” online. Can you change internet passwords, so she loses access? Disable her messaging ability? That will lead to WWIII but it’s an option.

or can you message whoever this is, and tell them you have contacted the authorities and to stop harassing your mother? If she finds out, that’s all WWIII, but again, it’s an option. But yes, alert the authorities to this regardless.

In the meantime, take her to a Dr to see if dementia is the issue. Many have been scammed by these online predators who don’t have dementia, however you will want her to be thoroughly checked by a Dr.

You may want to contact center for aging or some other elder assistance program and explain to them, your mother is being scammed. But see a Dr first. Perhaps, even counseling for her or your family. Strength in numbers.

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Mini-strokes, sounds like the start of vascular dementia, just like my mom, only mine is farther down the road. My mother has all sorts of delusions about having a lot of money and what she wants to do with it. At this point I just agree that going to the beach or going on a cruise, or what ever, sounds great. I have total control over her finances and she can't access anything. What concerns me with your case is the access to social media. If it was me, I would start with deleting accounts, apps, and change her phone number. Does she even need messaging? You can go into the app and disable it. Those scumbags are relentless.

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If it makes you feel better a 42 yr old Akron Ohio man was scammed out of $200,000 to a woman he was communicating with on an app So Syncd. As another member mentioned it can happen to almost anyone.

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She believes he's given her all this money?...but she can't "see" it I'm assuming so that's just a tale she believes at this point. And the truck obviously won't show up. I'm asking/making these points b/c if you can prove he's not living up to his promises it may be a first step in the right direction. Also. Can you get into her social media or digital communication method and confront aka "meet" Joe?

Sorry you're having to deal with this somewhat intangible task. Keep looking online for help with elderly scams, etc. I will see if I can find anything and post if I do. I'm confident she's not the first target so surely some have shared their tales...

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You must have legal guardianship due to dementia or incapacity.
This is why you are the decision maker.
By your questions, you do not understand brain chemistry changes or dementia. You need to educate yourself. Go on Teepa Snow's website and learn how to interact with people inflicted with dementia. You need to understand her mental capacity. If you do not, you will be in this 'arguing' dynamic forever.
By educating yourself on dementia, you will realize:
1) she doesn't have the ability to comprehend reality - she cannot understand its a scam.

2) never argue with anyone with dementia.

3) DO reflective listening, i.e., when she asks you to send money to xxx, respond:
"you want me to send xxx money?" - reflect her words back to her. If you engage in 'yes' and 'no' - "I will" "I won't" . . . because -- you will continue to be in this maze which is no resolution / 'winning' - there is just frustration for both of you.

4) She won't know what you are doing or not doing. You might say "Don't worry mom... I'll handle it." And then change the subject.
4a) If you get stuck and don't know what to say, Respond: Hmmm, that is interesting, I'll have to think about that and get back to you." Period end of subject. Change the subject.

5) Of course no one will change her mind. You are not dealing with a person who can have a conversation based on reality. Her mind will take her to place she wants to fantasize and/or take her to places where she believes you or others are stealing or some other scenarios of paranoia.

Of course she gives her money willingly to men, she feels they care for her.
For your own sanity, consider if its time for her to move into an assisted living or memory care facility.

You have major life responsibilities - being a gr/mother and working full time. Having some space between you with her in a separate living space will allow you to manage 'these conversations' vs having them day in and day out.

Learn how to respond to her. This is key.
Do not buy into her fantasies due to her brain chemistry changes.
Take care of yourself.
Consider the hard decisions which might be in both of your interests (her living in a facility / community). Gena

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I do not understand why someone with vascular dementia - who is unable to manage her own finances and has already fallen victim to fraud - still has access to any form of communication that would put them in touch with predators.

My mother does not have dementia, yet her phone has an app to block all numbers not on her contact list, her bills are set to auto draft reducing her concern about money, I balance her account regularly, she does not access social media, I changed her email from an old and lousy product to something with good safeguards and check her account thru my phone, and I even control her TV channels.

Basic facts to accept and live by:
Predators exist.
Any elderly person is at risk of falling victim to these predators.
Power of Attorney for someone with dementia means you have legally accepted to protect the person to the best of your ability.
Work with a geriatric care specialist and social worker so you understand what this fully means and how to step into the role as POA fully and without guilt.

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Excellent advice! Especially regulating all the media exposure, which seems to be a significant part of this.
When my husband is rambling on about something or is starting to get agitated. I wait until he finishes a sentance/thought, wait a few seconds and will use an open ended question/idea-"would you like to _______(go to the grocery store, farm, take a walk, watch a movie, help with dinner)?" Which has worked pretty well for me-so far.
I do not know the entirety of the poster's situation, and do not know if this suggestion would make it worse. Could "Joe" send her a thank you note (written and sent by you of course) saying he's ok now, had to use the moving truck for something else and will be fine, the fires are taken care of and he is now retired.

How do you redirect a conversation without leading into an argument?

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