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Welcome to our Ask Me Anything (AMA) thread. Nursing Home Trusts is a financial planning firm with over 30 years of expertise, specializing in protecting seniors' savings from potential nursing home expenses. Over the next three days, we're here to answer your questions about how to protect your or your loved one’s life savings from nursing homes [e.g., finding Medicaid facilities, private pay vs. Medicaid, protecting the family home, irrevocable trusts, Medicaid annuities, Medicaid financial planning, Medicaid "spend downs", the "5 year lookback", etc.].



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Hi All,

I really enjoyed my time in this AMA. The questions were thoughtful and relevant to the topic. I hope my answers prove helpful to the present and future readers of Aging Care.

If you find yourself in a Crisis Planning situation, please reach out to a professional. I've heard way too many stories of families losing the entirety of their life savings to outrageous nursing home costs, when they could have preserved a significant portion of the assets they worked so hard to save. The system is complicated, but help is available.
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For 15+ years I tried to convince my MIL to transfer the house to DH. She didn't believe there was such a thing as the look back rule.
Fast forward and MIL was forced to transfer the house below market value due to a legal issue with the county she lived in meaning the house couldn't be sold for her LTC.
Her transferred assets (car and house) were exempted during the Medicaid application process.
DH had to get guardianship and place her in care.
MIL passed last year.
MERP is now in play with a claim against an estate that has nothing of value including the fact the house was not even hers at the time of death.

For future reference:

If a person won't cooperate, how does one proceed with a trust or the asset look back issues? Is trying for an expensive guardianship or conservatorship the only answer to saving (not as inheritance) a house?
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi MyNameIsTrouble,

Without guardianship/conservatorship or financial POA your hands are really tied. Unfortunately if someone is totally unwilling to cooperate and you do not have the legal authority to make decisions on their behalf there is nothing that can be done. I wish it weren't so - your situation is not unique.
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Looking to the future:
I expect to outlive my husband and we have a documented separate property, separate money marriage.
I have a will.

Relocating to another state next year and will update our post nup there if needed.

I am where the money is. Husband will have a small pension plus social security.

Question: How best to protect assets for my late life needs, and later for my children's inheritance?
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GeezLouise Aug 2023
Adding: I don't have enough money for both of us to spend on nursing home, and do have LTC, and plan to buy LTC for husband when he reaches age 60.
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How long do you keep paperwork for someone who you were a representative payee for and this person landed in a NH in memory care? I know for Medicaid its 5 yrs they go back. Its been only about a yr that he has been there.

With what I have been thru with his family do I keep the paperwork until he dies? His family turned me into Dept of Human Services twice and Social Security for misuse of funds all were unfounded. I turned over the social security to the NH.

I had to sell his vehicle, cash out his life insurance so that he can apply it to his funeral. He has no other money out there everything is in the NH's hands. This was done to get him on Medicaid again. When he turned 65 they kicked him off before he was on it because of disability.
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi Babs2013,

Unfortunately your situation is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I recommend you contact an attorney in NH.
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Hi all,
 
This thread is closed to new comments overnight. It'll reopen tomorrow at 8 am EST, and Joshua Rae will return to answer more of your questions.
 
Thanks for participating!
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Hi Joshua! Since you just commented that you're unable to respond to a reply of a reply, I wanted to re-copy my response to a new question, if that is easier! Kindly see below...

Hi Joshua Rae - you really are an Expert - thank you so much for your great insight. Wow, it's a lot to take in - after reading your response, I had a few questions and I would be most grateful for your clarity on ~

1. You stated that one option is to "give the home to a trusted family member or sell it to them for whatever price you want, and allow Mom/Dad to continue living there as long as needed. This can even be made official with a "life lease." I'm a little confused because in a later paragraph, you mentioned that "the only real means of protecting the house is selling it to another family member who can pay fair market value." Is it that they would only pay fair market price if a "life lease" wasn't included? 

Joshua - are these two separate occurrences in which a family member can just sell their house for whatever price they want - and a different situation in which the price needs to be fair market value? 

2. And, you also talked about "4 exemptions to transfer the home without causing a penalty period" - can you kindly advise to who (and how) one needs to substantiate this regarding if they fall into one of these 4 exemptions? Do they substantiate this prior to the actual transfer? I have several friends navigating thru situations that knowing this may help.  

3. Wow - this is such an education...You mentioned techniques that I've never heard of, such as Lady Bird Deeds, sales based on "common level ratios", and Life Leases. Since they require an attorney, I was just wondering your thoughts on why you think that they aren't usually brought up by attorneys? They generally gravitate to discussing trusts. Are the alternative techniques that you mentioned less involved or time intensive to implement for the lawyer? 

...and lastly, do you or your firm offer consults on this and your various services? You are so knowledgeable - and thank you again for your valuable time and efforts!!
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi again Hopeforhelp22,

Regarding your question of sale of the home at "whatever price you want" vs fair market value - the key distinction here is whether or not you are within the lookback for Medicaid. If you are outside the 5 year lookback planning well in advance you can gift the home outright or sell it for whatever price you want. If you are within the 5 year lookback and in "Crisis Planning" you need to sell the home for fair market value or you'll cause a penalty period with Medicaid.

To answer your second question, once you have made the transfer you will need to provide evidence that you meet the specific requirements of the exemption. I would recommend that you compile this evidence as you go rather than try to put it all together at the last minute. For example, if you are a child caretaker living with Mom, gather together utility bills, tax statements and other documents showing you actually live in the home. Create a journal describing the care you are providing your parent and update it consistently. Some of the other exemptions are more straightforward and don't require as much preparation- i.e. showing that there is a child under the age of 21 or permanently blind or disabled child.

On to the 3rd question. Lady bird deeds and common level ratio sales are state-specific techniques that are not viable/useful in the vast majority of states. That is probably why attorneys aren't discussing them - they don't work in your state. Some states like NY allow for strategies such as Promissory Notes that aren't useful in other states. Another explanation is that attorneys, like all people, tend to operate with strategies they're comfortable with and have used successfully in the past. Local attorneys are best equipped to navigate these waters - they know the rules for their specific state, and even how the local Medicaid office interprets these rules.

Finally, no, our firm does not offer specific advice on home transfers and the 4 exemptions. The rules and regs are simply too complicated state to state, and although it's a service we'd like to offer in the long term, there's not enough national consistency for us to be able to offer these services at a professional level. Hopefully we'll get there some day! A local attorney, especially those credentialed as elder law or elder care are your best bet in these situations. Check out naela.org to find counsel with the appropriate knowledge.
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Hi All,

Some of you are replying to my replies, and unfortunately the forum doesn't let users reply to a reply to a reply!

I'll try to answer some of these nested responses tomorrow with fresh posts when the AMA opens up again, but if you respond to one of my replies please know I'm not ignoring you - it just won't let me answer!

If you start a new question I will be able to answer. See everyone tomorrow.
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Hi all,

We're closing this thread to new comments for the day. It'll reopen tomorrow at 8 am EST, and Joshua will return with more answers. Thanks for participating!
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This is a wonderful service you are providing, and I thank you in advance for your time. My Mom went into a crisis situation this past May and went into a Skilled Nursing Facility, which her Medicare and Tricare paid, up until now. She does not qualify for Medicaid because of money she has in her life savings. Now that her insurance has reached the end of what they will pay, we had the choice of keeping her in the Skilled Nursing with an out-of-pocket cost of $8,350 per month (which would exhaust all of her assets within less than a year) or move her to an Assisted Living Facility at $4,500 per month (which gives her around three years before she exhausts her assets and is officially considered destitute to qualify for Medicaid. What a terrible situation. We just moved her into Assisted Living. We have made application with the VA for Aid and Attendance, which may help her a bit, if she gets it. She is 94 years old and has some heart failure problems, but she could live long enough to spend all of her life savings. I'm sure at this point since she was living more or less independently before she had this medical emergency, there is nothing else for her to do, but I want to throw this out there and see what your opinion might be.
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi DesertRose,

I sent a long response to you yesterday, but I no longer see it! Hopefully I'm not duplicating efforts here.

Your case is the most common I encounter:
*Mom has a fall & breaks her hip and goes to the hospital for 3 or more days.
*Mom is discharged to a SNF for rehab. Medicare/private insurance can cover at most up to 100 days/year if discharged from a hospital with a 3 day+ stay.
*The 100 days elapse, and Mom still can't go home, so you start paying the full cost of the SNF on your own dime - $8,365/month national average.
*The family panics & realizes they're going to lose their entire savings in a matter of months. They either force Mom to go home when they shouldn't, find another cheaper facility & transfer Mom, or just pay the full cost and lose their entire life savings over a few months.

Let's set aside the different levels of clinical care that an assisted living can provide versus a SNF and focus just on the financial side. Could you have protected some or all of your Mom's life savings, have her stay in the original SNF, and receive Medicaid? Yes.

There are two main asset protection techniques that are utilized in Crisis Planning (financial planning within the 5 year lookback): Irrevocable Burial Trusts and Medicaid Annuities.

Irrevocable Burial Trusts
As Ben Franklin once said, "...in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes". Medicaid allows for the individual in the nursing home to set aside a certain amount of money for their funeral or cremation (subject to state specific limits - normally 15K). This is an inevitable cost, and if not addressed, will fall onto the shoulders of grieving family members. It makes sense to setup, and the law allows it. Many nursing homes will even make you aware of this. What they wont' tell you is you are allowed to set up these trusts not only for the individual in the nursing home, but their spouse, their siblings, their siblings spouses, their children, and their children's spouses. Depending on how many family members qualify, sometimes simply setting these trusts up can take 100K of countable assets and instantly turn them into non-countable assets. **The policies for siblings and children must be set up carefully, as they can only include (burial space items) on the goods and services contract - many funeral homes do not know how to do these properly.**

Ultimately, instead of giving the 100K to the nursing home over the next 11 months, you could give 7 family members ~14K life insurance policies that are earmarked for burial expenses. It's not the sexiest financial product, but remember you're in a "use it or lose it" situation, & we set these up for free!

Medicaid Annuities
I already discussed these briefly in another post regarding a married couple (where these products really shine); however, Medicaid annuities are still often a great solution for single individuals. To keep it as simple as possible (these products are complex), a single individual can normally protect ~50% of their remaining countable assets with a Medicaid annuity.

First, we give half the money away - to friends, family, a church, whoever... This creates a penalty period with Medicaid, for it is an outright gift within the 5 year lookback. Next, we take the other half of the countable assets and place the funds in a Medicaid annuity to be distributed back to Mom to cover the costs of her care during the penalty period.

There's a lot of fine tuning involved - balancing income & expenses, actuarial life expectancies & other details. These are always done with the supervision of a professional & the Medicaid application should always be included in the package. There is also a cost $7500(our partner) - $20,000+(high end elder care attorneys), but effectively for a single individual the Medicaid annuity could have protected roughly 50% of your Mom's savings, she could have stayed in the facility, & received Medicaid.
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Hi Joshua Rae! Wow, what a privilege it is to receive your expertise like this - much appreciation to You and Aging Care for coordinating this - and for your generosity! This is wonderful.
 
- I have a question - you referenced "protecting the family home" in one of the items in your post. Can you kindly advise what that would be....can you please explain other ways to do so other than setting up a trust? ...especially for elderly family members who are already in their 90's.

...also, an alternative that I recall reading on this site is others' have referenced transferring their parent's deeds or including their names on the deeds - is this an option in protecting the home - and wondering your thoughts (pros/cons)?

Thank you sooo much again for your valuable time!!
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
So a quick overview of how the home works with Medicaid. Medicaid will allow you to ignore the value of one home(up to 688k in most states) and one car on the front end up application - sounds too good to be true right?.. Well it is, for as soon as Medicaid starts paying bills they tally up all their contributions, and after your loved one dies they will try to recoup their outlay during estate recovery. This is often when families "lose the home" or at least owe some portion of its value to the government and are forced to sell it to pay off the debt owed.

So how can you prevent this? Well there are several simple options if you're planning in advance - ahead of the 5 year lookback. Simply give the home to a family member you trust, or sell it to them for whatever price you want, and allow Mom/Dad to continue living there as long as needed. This can even be made official with a "life lease".

Outside of the 5 year lookback, planning in advance, it's very easy to protect the house. You could also place the home in an irrevocable trust, but that is not necessary for Medicaid protection, it is more of a safeguard against losing control if you don't have a family member you trust with such an important asset. The main point is, if you're concerned about losing the family home, get the home out of the elderly person's name 5 years or more in advance of needing a nursing home and Medicaid.

Now of course most people are taken by surprise by a nursing home stay, and don't do this preparation in advance. Within the 5 year lookback your options are much more limited, and simply placing a child's name on the deed will not protect the home, in fact it will likely cause a penalty period with Medicaid because adding someone to the deed is in fact gifting them a portion of a valuable asset. Simply adding the child(ren) to the deed even outside of the 5 year lookback likely won't protect the entirety of the home, because even though Mom and the children now own the home , Medicaid would still lay claim to Mom's portion of the home during estate recovery.

So, unless you fall under one of the 4 exemptions for transferring the home and not causing a penalty period, the only real means of protecting the house is selling it to another family member who can pay fair market value.

The 4 exceptions to transfer the home without a penalty period are:

1) A child of the parent in the nursing home lived in the parent's home for 2 or more years immediately prior to the nursing home and provided care that would have otherwise necessitated the parent being in the nursing home.
2) The parent in the nursing home has a child under the age of 21.
3) The parent has a child that is permanently blind or disabled.
4) The parent in the nursing home has a sibling who has lived in the home for 1 or more years and has an equity interest in the home (even 1%).

All that being said, even if you don't meet any of those 4 exceptions and Medicaid does try to recover the house after the death of your loved one, some states allow you to file a "Hardship Waiver" to prevent or reduce the recovery of assets.

There are some other more exotic techniques such as Lady Bird Deeds, sales based on "common level ratios", and Life Leases that can be effective in certain states, although they virtually always require an attorney's supervision. Hopefully this is helpful!
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Hello and Thank You for your time,
I'm the adult child sole caregiver for my Mom in her home. We are using the medicaid exemption for title transfer if or when she enters LTC.
Are there any hard rules regarding the number of hours per day or weekly cumulative total hours an adult child caregiver must provide in the activities of daily living to qualify/stay qualified for this transfer exemption?
Thank You for any insight
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi trials,

Unfortunately, like most Medicaid provisions, the rules are interpreted on a state-specific level. Here is the federal rule 42 U.S.C. §1396p(c)(2)(A)(iv) which the states use as their basis:

"(iv)a son or daughter of such individual (other than a child described in clause (ii)) who was residing in such individual’s home for a period of at least two years immediately before the date the individual becomes an institutionalized individual, and who (as determined by the State) provided care to such individual which permitted such individual to reside at home rather than in such an institution or facility;"

"Here is what one state requires from a child seeking to utilize this exemption:
1) a written statement from the parent's primary physician describing the type and amount of care provided by the child and the effect such care may have had on the parent's ability to reside in the home.
2) written documentation regarding the medical condition of the parent
3) copies of either: documentation from the Dept. of Social Services, canceled checks, bank statements, income tax forms or other documents showing that the child provided care and/or financial support to the parent; and
4) copies of the child's income tax returns for the prior three years or bank statements or bills in the child's name showing the parent's residence as the child's residence from two years prior to the date of the parent's entry into the nursing home and to the present date."
-from "Medicaid Planning: From A to Z" -K. Gabriel Heiser J.D.

In general, my understanding is you need to document that A) your parent would have needed to move into a nursing home if it weren't for your care (you'll need a physician's assessment for this) and B) what care you actually provided during these two years. Keep robust records! I have not heard of specific hours or weekly cumulative totals being required for this exemption.

I've also been told that normally it is best to make the transfer of the home under this provision after your parent has moved into the nursing home and been accepted to Medicaid, although I don't believe this is a strict requirement.

Warning to other readers, @trials is referencing a very specific exemption for transferring a home that does not lead to a penalty period with Medicaid. Most families cannot utilize this exemption. There are also 3 other exemptions which allow you to transfer the home in specific circumstances that do not create a penalty period. If this topic is of interest please reply to this thread and I'll be happy to delve into the subject at a deeper level.
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Hi, Joshua. Thanks so much for being here and sharing your time, thoughts, and expertise. And thanks, AgingCare, for arranging this.

My question: How do you approach financial planning and the inevitable need for AL/NH/Medicaid when you're a married couple with a large age gap?

My spouse is 15 years older than me, and I will still need to work full-time to support us and save for my own retirement at the same time that he'll get older and need more support. We've saved as much as possible over the years and continue to do so, but we don't have a lot, and now with inflation and the rising cost of living, what we've saved is now worth less than before. We also have no support system: it's just the two of us. And there will come a point where I simply cannot take care of him and support us/myself and will need to rely on some form of AL/NH.

But how do we plan to make sure that our entire life's savings doesn't end up going to AL/NH and/or Medicaid spend-downs for him, ultimately leaving me without any savings left to support myself in my own later years?

Additionally, as part of that: We currently rent an apartment. But is it necessary that we buy one (despite the fact that that doing so will cost even more $ in the long-run, which comes out of my retirement savings) in order to at least guarantee me a place to live once Medicaid steps in?

Many thanks.
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi tidalblue,

Thank you for your question. First, it's important to understand the differences between independent living, assisted living, and nursing homes when considering Medicaid. Independent living and assisted livings are almost always paid on your own dime, and even though Medicaid is available in some states for assisted livings, it does not cover room and board. Medicaid will only cover the full cost of care in skilled nursing facilities (nursing homes), so until your spouse requires that level of care, be prepared to shoulder the majority of costs.

Second, some good news. It is much easier to protect assets while applying for Medicaid when the individual in the nursing home has a living spouse. Even without professional planning, when one member of a married couple applies for Medicaid to cover long-term care costs, there's a keen understanding that the other spouse (referred to as the "community spouse") shouldn't be left destitute. To this end, the Community Spouse Resource Allowance (CSRA) was established. This allowance essentially lets the community spouse keep a portion of the couple's joint assets without affecting the eligibility of the spouse applying for Medicaid.

The exact amount varies by state, but there are both federal minimum and maximum limits set to protect the community spouse. In most states the maximum the community spouse can keep is $148,620 in countable assets (this amount excludes the value of one home and one car). States vary in how they count IRAs/401ks of the community spouse- some exclude it, other's count it.

Now even better news: a Medicaid annuity (sometimes called a single premium immediate annuity) can normally protect all of a couples assets during a Medicaid application. This is a complicated product, and should always be supervised by a professional, but medicaid annuities essentially convert a couples countable assets into a non-countable income stream for the community spouse. Effectively this means that if one spouse enters the nursing home and the other is still living independently in the community, a medicaid annuity can help them protect all of their assets.

The major exceptions to the effectiveness of medicaid annuities for married couples are when the couple owns more than one piece of real estate that they are unwilling/unable to liquidate, or cases where the couple owns a business(es) or other illiquid assets. The vast majority of elder care attorneys and some medicaid planning professionals offer medicaid annuities as part of their services. Expect to pay somewhere between $7500 (cost our partner charges) - $20,000 (higher end Elder Care Attorneys) for the service of setting up a Medicaid annuity and doing the Medicaid application.

I bring up all this detail to let you know that if your husband ended up needing a nursing home, you will be entitled to keep some level of savings by default, and by hiring a professional you will likely be able to keep the vast majority, if not all of your assets, and still get your husband on Medicaid. Given the effective strategies available to married couples, I do not feel that purchasing a home is the ideal way to protect assets when applying for Medicaid.

It's important to note that the medicaid annuities are not nearly as effective for single individuals entering a nursing home, as the best the medicaid annuities can do for single individuals is protect ~50% of their remaining countable assets.

Finally, for those planning well in advance, and have strong confidence they won't need a nursing home in the next 5 years (the Medicaid lookback period), consider moving your assets out of your name. You can gift your children your savings, home or business or establish an irrevocable trust with the help of an attorney. If you end up requiring skilled nursing 5 or more years from now, Medicaid will not require you to spend down the assets you moved out of your name before you receive financial support.
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Hi Joshua - I'm feeling overwhelmed and don't know where to start -- for my mom, and eventually for me. Advice for getting started?
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EXPERT Joshua Rae Aug 2023
Hi Insomniac,

I understand your sentiment - I still experience it after 20 years! The complexity of Medicaid laws and planning techniques is daunting. If you are not in a "crisis planning" situation where a loved one needs a nursing home now, I recommend you seek out a local certified elder law attorney and check to see if they host any seminars or free educational classes - many do. Most will also provide a free initial consultation where you can discuss your main concerns and learn about your options.

Often times people avoid attorneys because of the costs, but in terms of asset preservation and Medicaid - there are many more options available to families who put plans into place 5 or more years before needing a skilled nursing facility and Medicaid, especially if your father is no longer living.

For those in a crisis planning situation - their loved one needs a nursing home and has assets that are countable by Medicaid that need "spent down" - visit our website or call a local elder care attorney ASAP. Time is of the essence: the average nursing home costs $8400/month, and every day you delay getting professional help will probably cost you ~$300.

Shameless plug: I did write a primer on nursing home asset protection. You can buy it on Amazon.

The most robust treatment of the topic I have seen is K. Gabriel Heiser's book "Medicaid Planning: From A to Z". I reference it almost every day.

Is this the type of advice you were looking for? If you elaborate on your concerns/situation I'm happy to be more specific.
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Is this vendor paying to post his services?

Maybe advertisers should be restricted to the Products section?

Change to Products/Services menu navigation? It may be easier find what one is looking for rather than having to comb through the main Questions section -- which should be preserved for the public caregivers, not advertisers -- this way it doesn't get clogged up with vendors peddling services.

Just a thought.
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Geaton777 Aug 2023
What's wrong with having this sort of thing being on a separate menu (in addition to FIND CARE FORUM CARE TOPICS PRODUCTS) so that it's more easily found?
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VERIFIED: This is legitimately Joshua Rae of Nursing Home Trusts.
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AlvaDeer Aug 2023
Hi AC:

Can you clear up something currently causing confusion with more than a few members. You tell us that Joshua Rae is legitimately Joshua Rae of Nursing Home Trusts. I get that. What isn't clear to me is his relationship with AC.

Is Nursing Home Trusts or Joshua an advertiser with AC for his Irrevocable Trusts, annuities, or whatever, or is he just someone that AC has asked to be on the Forum to give expert advice about Medicaid, but someone with no financial connection/partnership with AC, A Place for Mom, or any parent corp?

Joshua is clearly smart and very informed. My concern is that readers should know if he is an advertiser selling a product or if he is just here helping to answer questions. People are often easily confused and easily led when it comes to "asset protection" and sometimes desperate enough to buy risky products or products they don't have all the pros and cons on. That's really my only concern, and I hope before doing things they don't fully understand people will seek advice from a fiduciary advisor such as an elder law attorney.
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