Step mom is reluctant to leave Dad's house which we need to rent or sell to pay for his memory care. Any thoughts?

Tough call - how long have they been married? Just trying to look at it from SM position.

It is smart to consider selling the house while the market is up. Does SHE have any children that have any input into her future care. If so, certainly they should be part of the conversation. It sounds like they kept their assets separate. That could be tricky if they are legally married and your father runs out of "his" funds for his care. I think this is where your elder care attorney should be earning his fee with some advice from a Medicaid and tax implication standpoint when he runs out of cash and the house is the only thing left. Keep us posted on what you end up doing.

Adam, it is very difficult for our elders to downsize from their homes. Yes, it could take your Step-Mom four months to be ready to move, probably even longer. It all depends on if she can walk away from more than half of her and your Dad's stuff.

I was able to move my Dad into assisted living as he wasn't fussy about what furniture to take, but he wanted all his books. So I asked him to start thinning them out. The standard joke around his house was Dad went through 200 books and kept 199. He even wanted an old set of encyclopedias from the 1930's, and another set from the 1960's. So we moved them to his new place. Now, if my Mom was still alive, there would have been no move at all.

Yes, try to keep your Step-Mom and your Dad in the same community. As for charging your Step-Mom rent, I wouldn't do that. But try to explain to Step-Mom that it is going to be expensive for her husband to live in memory-care, what would she suggest to help with the cost. Let it be her idea.

Unfortunately marriages puts such a wrench in everything.

If the home is only in your father's name, legally it is his to do with as he pleases. I would suggest that if they have been married for some time, and she has generally been a pleasant person that was good to him, I would allow her the extra time to move. Moving can be very difficult for the elderly, and if she's been generally good for dad's life there is no harm in letting her stay a bit longer than you would like...to keep the peace and not cause any legal actions her family may have.

But as Mincemeat suggests, the fact that they are married could have legal implications...including taking into account all the assets in bank accounts that they hold together and any investments. You will need to know about all of these in case you ever have to apply for Medicaid...as she will be the community spouse.

I would hope that her family will have plans for her already and will be moving forward with those plans using her assets.

Angel

Thanks so far. Some answers and clarifications...
1. Married 18 years. Known each other for decades, she was a friend of my mother when they were younger.
2. Yes, she has three kids, and they are in on the discussion. Her son feels it is unsafe for her to be alone in the house during the winter (it's in Massachusetts).
3. Yes, there is an antenuptial agreement to keep their assets separate.
4. Medicaid not an option as it won't pay for assisted living at the house is, I believe, over the limit at about $1M (it's a nice beach house).
5. I should point out that the original plan, when Dad moved into assisted living in March, she was going to join him in a few months, at least by end of summer. Then, about two months in, she decided she wasn't moving. Now, her daughter is suggesting we let her stay until the house is sold, which would give her two months' notice--even though she now says she needs six months to move.
6. Good idea to get her thoughts on how to manage the expenses.
7. Yes, she's been good to him--except for reneging on her plan to live with/near him (which has led to his delusions that she is having an affair, which has threatened their relationship more on top of everything else).

In this economy you want to sell that house to the first person willing to pay your asking price. If it ends up in a bidding war, hurray! You must be flexible - and so must stepmom, and her children.

Houses sell faster when they are either empty or staged.

Her children must help her downsize one room at a time. Old people who are attached to their stuff are never going to change. She will never get it done herself.

When my inlaws were moving to indy living they stalled something fierce. They took much too much stuff with them to their new apartment, which they have cluttered up with new stuff, but that's none of my business.

I will echo NYD's comments...in that a house will sell faster if there are no contingencies. For example, if someone wants the house...chances are they want to close and move in...not wait months for the occupant to move out.

Angel

Adam,
I'm glad you do have the Elder Attorney already. I would not have the faintest clue to give you.

I do know that you have come to the best site, where MANY have been through a whole lot of legal/emotional/stuff and definitely willing to comment and express support.

If anything, and as you go down this part of the journey, you're welcome to vent, ask,comment, ramble on, whatever the case may be.

We're all doing the best we can, within our means, and remember to take good care of yourself, while you deal with the issues.

Keep posting. More and better help is on the way!

M 8 8

Right now my husband and I are getting ready to clean out my inlaws' little cabin so that we can show it and find renters. If I were a potential renter and walked into the cabin right now, saw all the personal effects and clutter, I would walk right back out.

What are you going to do with your stepmom when the realtor needs to show the house? Stepmom must vacate so as to give potential buyers the freedom to look around. The house won't sell if it's too difficult to show it. The realtor knows that and they will put their energies toward a house that's easier to show.

I agree with NYDaughterInLaw, there are Sellers who refuse to cooperate with the Realtor who is trying to sell the house. Making a house difficult means the Realtor will by-pass the house on the tour of houses with Buyers. Of course, some Sellers do that to keep themselves in the house longer.... [sigh].

My parents wanted to sell their home decades ago, and retire elsewhere. The Realtor had a lot of patience, a whole lot, as he wanted to put a sign in the yard.... nope.... he wanted to put a lockbox with the house key on the front door.... a huge nope.... he wanted to hold open houses.... another huge nope. My Mom didn't want anyone snooping around her house.... and heaven forbid if a Buyer wanted to see the house when my Mom was cooking lunch or dinner... but my parents wanted the house sold quickly..... [rolling eyes]. Once my parents moved out to their new home, the house did sell.

My thought is that stepmom must have at least as much responsibility to pay for her husband's care as you do, no? In which case show her the numbers and ask her how she plans to manage.

Actually, sorry, can I take that back?

Her cancer... is she thinking that she might die before she has to leave, do you think? Is that in a way what she hopes will happen?

This is incredibly hard. Does she have any support team that you can ask for help with discussions? - care manager, counsellor, therapist, anyone?

Adam, it just seems to become more complicated, doesn't it?

1. Without being blunt, what is the stage of your stepmother's cancer? Is she in chemo or radiation now? Even without knowing that information, someone living with cancer is facing a tremendous challenge in terms of contemplating her own future. Consideration of moving could be more than she could handle, let alone the move itself.

2. The flip side of the issue is that she might actually be more comfortable living with your father, but there's always that issue of his dementia, which could really challenge her ability to adjust to living somewhere else, and once again feeling the responsibility to care for him even if they are in separate units (and I question the value of that).

3. And while I would hope this isn't the situation, she may be exhausted from the turmoil she and your father have gone through and just want some peace now that she's living alone. As I recall, she was working hard to care for your father and the house despite the fact that she was battling cancer. She may just need this time for a respite.

4. I think the delay in moving is her way of putting off dealing with the issue; it just may be more than she can contemplate at this time. I certainly can understand and attest to the fact that this kind of delay in planning exists, whether dementia, cancer or even old age are present.

And there have been a LOT of changes in your parents' lives.

5. I definitely wouldn't ask for rent. I think that would make her feel rejected from the family and considered more of a renter than a stepmother.

6. Could the building left by her husband be sold and the funds used for your father's care? Or is that not an option under the antenuptial agreement?

7. I wouldn't be comfortable with showing the house while she's living there, even though it might be the best move financially and market wise. I think it will make her feel pushed, pressured, perhaps unwanted by your side of the family. I recognize the need, but I think her feelings are more important. I would try to make her a part of any changes so she doesn't feel left out or as if the family is making plans about her life w/o her input.

8. Is there a possibility she could live with one of her adult children? I know that this isn't going to be a popular suggestion but I get the impression your family has cordial relations and works together for a solution, that you're all professionals and working together for a solution, and that may be one to keep her with family until the house is sold and funds are available for your father's longer term care.

9. As to encouraging her to adapt to the concept of moving, perhaps her own children could visit once a week or so, with the goal of working on one room, or one aspect, slowly and leisurely packing while combining casual conversation. Begin or end the day with lunch or dinner - make it a social as well as a working event.

I would never let her pack alone though; it will be too traumatic and sad. She needs companionship to do this.

10. If it's not realistic to dispose of some things, either pack them for storage at her children's homes or rent a storage unit. That way she knows they're still available for her. And in time she may gradually forget what's there. I did when we did that after my sister died. I'm still surprised at what I kept.

11. If it's feasible, perhaps she could even spend a weekend, then a week or two, with one of her children to begin the moving and leaving her home acclimation process.


This is really a tough decision; please give yourself and your family enough time to work it out so that you don't feel pressured or regret any decisions.

Another thought, long shot perhaps....

I'm assuming that one or more of your stepmother's children hold proxies to manage her affairs? If so, would they be willing to free up some assets to pay for your father's care, with the caveat that she would be reimbursed on sale of your father's house?

It might actually be a bargaining chip.

AdamBravo,

Here is an idea. It sounds as if she has at some point agreed to move on. If she is elderly and fighting cancer, just the thought of sorting through things, packing and them moving is probably just horrible and seems impossible. The idea to have family come in and attack a room at a time is brilliant.

Back to the thought I wanted to share from a real estate standpoint...If is is a beach house, this is the prime time to show it. Since you all probably agree, it will take awhile to move on, sell it with the provision for a 2, 4 or 6 month leaseback. Talk to your broker...could be win-win, she gets time to move out, a sale can go through, new owners have the winter to remodel, move in, etc.

Adam - I find myself looking at this from so many contradictory points of view it's making my head hurt. I do not envy the position you're in that's for sure - I can't even imagine how this all feels to you! I'm gonna think on this some more while I vaccum - next to the shower this is when I do my best brainstorming- lol! But - before I forget I wanted to say - I commend you for approaching the issue of paying for your fathers care in such an upright, straightforward manner. Everyday we see post after post where people want ideas on how to squirrel away and hide their parents money from the government so they can get Medicaid and still get a nice big inheritance. Frankly, those posts chap my hide. So my dear - good for you! I admire your character- just not your position- lol!

This is kind of morbid, but I think it is relevant. Do you know your SM's cancer prognosis?

If she has cancer, let her be, leave the house in the Trust. She will be gone soon. Trusts are made to protect assets from MERP. Get Dad on Medicaid. I think that is what he intended. If he was a wartime veteran, the VA will take him and they fast-track veterans over 90.

Churchmouse: Yeah, I would have thought that, too. But she also wants to put her grandkids through college. They did sign an antenuptial financial separation agreement. I think she thinks she might outlive Dad. And, she's going to an Alzheimer's support group and a therapist, but my primary conduit to her (besides direct conversation) is her kids.
GardenArtist: Cancer appears to be slowly spreading, but if you'd met her you'd think she was a healthy, lively 88. Her daughter says she has 'caregivers' syndrome', where she feels obligated to do whatever she can for Dad (short of actually living him, obviously)--and, so, yes, I think she is probably exhausted. Yes, she could sell the apartment building--haven't brought it up, as it's her choice. She could live with one of the kids, I suppose, but not sure if either she or they are up for that.
PamStegma: Medicaid not a option yet; the house is worth too much, and it won't pay for assisted living.

Adam, notwithstanding any family observation and classification of caregivers' syndrome, there is actually such a condition. I learned about it over a decade ago.

Apparently some medical personnel or people with great amounts of empathy can become subject to this, and it could become compulsive if not psychologically addicting and damaging.

It's been awhile since I researched it, but if I recall correctly there's a higher level of oxytocin in these folks. I did some quick research again but didn't find articles specifically addressing this in caregiving, so perhaps the research a decade ago has shifted to other areas affected by this chemical.

But I do specifically mentally gasping as I read those earlier articles and discovering the relationship between caregiving and almost compulsive caregiving.

When considering Dad's needs, one must equally consider the wife's needs and the whole picture of the marital assets. With high costs of care, and wife having cancer, it would be unrealistic to be thinking about giving away money for grandchildren's education, imo. It is a wants vs. needs thing.

With care costs looming, there will be lookbacks from Medicaid if that has to become a reality for one or both spouses. Selling anything should require an indebth evaluation by an attorney in favor of both spouses.

I am for keeping them together, in the same place, but then, what do I know? Or, second best, her at home, him in AL.
October is not that far off. Use the equity loan to pay for his care, but do not encumber the house more than 50%, imo. Allow her to stay there. Maybe she can encumber her other assets to be able to pay the house expenses herself. Including, bringing in care providers to her and your Dad's home. Does anyone feel an obligation to provide for his wife while she is living? Won't you benefit from the inheritance once she has passed? Can Dad visit his home and her while he is in memory care? Supervised maybe? These are just some questions to ask.
However, I advise to get her the in-home care now, don't wait.

I am reading some things that don't appear to be above board, and are unclear.

But I will let you know this: I know a couple with over 45 years of marriage whose family separated them to care in their home for Dad. Mom went to a senior apartment and died alone of an asthma attack. Without care.

When you state assets and income (hers and her husband's), whose husband is your Dad? Or not? How long have they been married, or not? No need to explain to me.

There seems to be an odd dynamic at work here that makes this an unusual situation. Adam is POA for his dad - does that completely cut the wife out of any decision making? Typically in similar situations it would be the wifes responsiblity to make the decision as to what needs to be liquidated in order to pay for her husbands care. How is it that this seems to be treated as two separate sets of circumstances? As SM is still legally married to dad where is her responsibility in all this? I would expect to see what is being described here for a couple that may have been living together but not married - but there is an 18 year marriage here - than is a substantial amount of time.

Ah ha! I know now why I feel so hesitant to weigh in on this - as I was writing my previous reply it started to gel. This situation reminds me of the one back in February- the one where I got my a$$ handed to me by pretty much everyone for having a strong but minority point of view. Long term SM living seperate from dad and dads kids running the show. If I remember right the SM in that one ended up living on her own in an IL apartment.

If the wife collects social security income on her former deceased husband's income, but is remarried for 18 years, isn't that illegal?

If a husband and wife live in a home as married for 18 years, it does not matter if one had to move out to get care, the remaining spouse should get to live there, no matter what the legal paperwork says, imo.

Who hired this attorney to draw up an antenuptial agreement for the benefit of just your father? Or, at least it looks that way.

Fraud alert? Or am I jumping to conclusions or over-reacting? Are they divorced?

Lets just talk about this one legal aspect. If Dad owns the house, any increase in equity becomes community property of the spouses and must be divided.

Was she cheated out of this asset by the "antenuptial agreement"?

It doesn't matter if she has more assets, does it? How is it that she will lose her home of 18 years?

Careful, sendme - that's how I ended up in a month long exile!

Since the house is in a trust, it is exempt from inclusion in Medicare discussion. Since it was their home together, she has a right to live there but moreover it is the right thing to do to leave her in the place she loves and that has been her home for so many years. There is much wealth in your family and it is an honor to care for our families as they age. Just as it was in your father's best interest to be placed in memory care, it is in your stepmother's best interest to age in place. Look to your family's other sources of wealth to solve this relatively short duration dilemma.

Hello, Won't Medicaid agree to a lean against the property in exchange for services? Did they discuss a "spend down"? What did your attorney tell you about MA property laws? Medical and Durable POA's? I'm concerned about your knowledge base while having an attorney. If he has not reviewed these subjects with you, IMHO... fire him! That said...if there is a legal marriage in place she speaks for your father unless she legally assigns it to someone else. Don't assume anything. Make sure YOU SEE AND COPY the marriage certificate. This can be done online @ MA.gov homepg. It differs state to state. Put the copy in a binder. Put EVERYTHING in this binder. Trust me, it will pay off.
SM should live in home as long as she can afford to do so including the home equity payment, taxes, insurance, routine upkeep. You will not be perceived as heartless. A little patience.
Medicaid will allow the spouse to "keep" a certain amount of assets- Spousal Impoverence Act 197? They could also"force" you to sell the property since it's just his. You said you have POA. Do you have Durable, Medical or both? What triggers them LEGALLY? Do you need an MD or 2MD's to document that the triggers (cognitive impairment) is present and renders him incapable. If you have the Durable POA and there is nothing in written form stating she has the right to remain from your dad pay her a visit and give her an eviction notice. Tell her you're terribly sorry but this is life and this is your Father. No hard feelings. THEN LEAVE. Less is more. From observed experience over 30+ years...you pick...a confused old man or the beach. Send a copy to 1of her kids identified a spokesperson and put 1 copy in your binder after write down your conversation,date and time. You probably should use the sheriff or constable serve the notice but it's kind of cold. Have the sheriff serve her an eviction notice after you have if you think there's going to be a problem. Do you have a friend or family member who could live in the property during the notice period. Please understand, I realize this all sounds cold but think about it...if she was willing or able to do what your family has asked, she's impeding your ability to take care of your dad. Stay peaceful but firm. Write down a plan for your dad with your family. Then follow it. An y'all remember..fall together, not apart.

WannaBe, the stepmother has cancer. Evicting her under those circumstances is one of the most cruel acts I can imagine.