Tragic end to caregiving

Terrible & Tragic. Maybe the company needs to take this as a lesson to monitor their staff. I have a friend who volunteers as a counsellor. They as counsellors also get counselling to cope with giving counselling and the effects on them. I hope the suggestion goes to the correct people or if unions are available to take this tragic happening as not to have happened in vain.
There were prob enough cries for help that werent noticed. Even teams - they could have a check in weekly How are you doing all and go around the table (or phone) and listen to how people are doing. Maybe going forward it may help others.
That said your husband has received some terrible news maybe he needs to check in with counselling - that is hard to digest. I will light candle for the dear lady today and to all those affected. Best.

@ Bulldog .

Grief is not a contest . Yet your detailed posts about your family read as such .
Your bullying of people because you are grieving is inappropriate.

@ Bulldog ,

And you don’t think your post telling me that I don’t understand the trauma of death by suicide in a family is offensive ??

C’mon !!!

You had no idea what my experiences were .
And now you turn it back on me that by calling you out , I’m derailing my own thread.

I guess only some of us are willing to admit some responsibility here .

We all can’t be perfect all the time .

I’m hopping off this thread now, so if I missed anyone else who understood me because it was so clear, and posted that you understand my point of view, I thank you also. 🙏🏻

Thank you, Mia Moore, for understanding my dissemination of information on how not to inflict more pain on those who are already suffering.

All they had to do was say, “Thank you for this information. I was not aware and I appreciate you looking out for me so that I don’t inflict pain on another person accidentally.”

And then this thread would have kept on topic about this poor woman who died by suicide because it’s that hard to caregive and how her 17 year old son will go through life. It’s so very hard getting left behind when someone dies this way.

Family and friends disappear because they don’t know what to say or do. We experienced this, so I’m helpfully letting people know what words to NOT use.

Thank you, Casole, for reading my plain language and my plain intent and understanding that people shouldn’t walk around using old terms (for the people who are not wayto who tripled down on their right to use aged out terms that are offensive). Sure, people can use outdated offensive terms and they can triple down that they will still use those terms, but it only reflects badly on them.

Yes, language evolves.

Yes, language matters.

For the third time, I appreciate that Wayto said she will be more aware in the future and I thank her for posting that.

Thank you Evamar ,

I am sorry that I inadvertently used a term . I have asked for forgiveness and said I would try to be more mindful .

I have also asked for some understanding that there was no intent to offend.

In return I was shamed and was told that I can not understand the trauma a family has gone through dealing with grieving over a family member’s death by suicide .
This is false .

Way,
I am so sorry that it came to this as you obviously started very tragic yet important topic related to CAREGIVING.
The sad event you described is much deeper than simple semantics.
As one study suggests one in 17 of caregivers commits suicide.
That is tragic news and words or phrases used don’t matter.

Admin ,

I am self reporting for this thread to be shutdown please . An old term was inadvertently used in my original post .
The term became the focus of the thread .
The original purpose of the thread was about a caregiver in distress .

Thank you for this reminder Bulldog. I believe all of us here are caring and empathetic people. I think the information you shared was non judgemental and informational. I think that since you are here and since I have respect for you as part of this community I would take that information and be mindful just as Way so graciously did. You certainly didn't "come after" anyone specifically in your original reply. And you posted some very informative links. Language evolves.

If we actually have respect for one another and the various things each of us has actually been through then why WOULDN'T we be open to not purposely inflicting more pain on someone by arguing that it's all just "woke nonsense" and semantics. When we have multiple traumatic things happening in our lives it's easy to feel attacked, we are raw.

This isn't Facebook or Instagram where bots post divisive comments. It's a community. And maybe some of you disagree with this phrasing but I would hope you'd be open to not just doubling down on continuing to hurt Bulldog's feelings. It comes across as very unkind.

I think that to call your information "woke" (when did being sensitive to how some people with lived experience prefer certain language to be used come to be called woke and used as a slur to diminish... by the way, it's not actually what woke means historically. ..) is being very defensive, stubborn and a bit mean honestly.

If families of folks who have died by suicide prefer this term then far be it from me to tell them it doesn't matter and it's just semantics....

I think that this thread has got a little out of hand.

Bulldog initially made a point, without judgment, that we should say "died by suicide", rather than "committed suicide", and why.

There was nothing wrong with saying that.

In fact, as someone who has suffered with suicidal ideation from childhood, I am surprised I haven't heard this said before. So, even I am used to the term "committed suicide" and will try and be more mindful in future.

However, there was an angry and OTT backlash to that simple comment from Bulldog, which resulted in heated words being exchanged.
There was no need for that.

Everyone, please remember that we come here to give and receive support. We have enough going on in our lives to bring us down.
Let this be a safe space.

As I stated I will attempt to be more mindful of terms . We all make mistakes and slip at times though .

I remember as a child my mother with NPD threatening to jump , and when I was a teen , her threatening to swallow a bunch of pills . Making me beg and cry to stop . Then demanding I do not tell anyone ( about these episodes) .

I do not recall what people said when my friend or cousin died by suicide . I just remember coming to terms with it , respecting their decision. Perhaps understanding better than others because I had contemplated the act as well . I also remember the young children left behind .

I remember seeing my sister in ICU after her attempt . I do not remember exactly what any of us in the family said .

I don’t remember the exact words my daughter used when she told me her boyfriend was in the hospital due to an attempt . I just remember driving up to her college to support my daughter .

I can’t tell you the exact words that made me realize that after the boyfriend’s attempt that my daughter was not handling it well . I just remember getting help for her . It took a long time for her to stop worrying about him even after they were no longer a couple .

I myself have had very dark thoughts on and off during my life , especially when I was younger and then again during caregiving . All due to my mother’s lifelong abuse . What kept me alive was not wanting to orphan my children . I can tell you that I wouldn’t care what someone called an act that I felt I needed to do .

At this time we are currently dealing with parent number 4. Parent number one was a piece of cake compared to the other 3 . All 3 , lifelong selfish , entitled, spoiled people , refusing care . People who we should not even give the time of day to .
But we feel obligated .

Simultaneously , my daughter has moved back home after a broken marriage engagement . She is devastated . She has had dark thoughts on and off but says she is too chicken to ever do anything . She is in therapy . It also took weeks for her to get a doctor appt for antidepressant . So still waiting for that to kick in . I haven’t slept well the past 7 weeks. I sleep in my son’s old room across the hall , so I will hear if she gets up at night . Sometimes she comes in to talk at 3 am . She feels lost . The fiancé was having an individual ( career ) crisis and ran . She was blindsided .

To be honest neither term bothers me personally . It doesn’t change what happened . I wonder if others like me who have been on the brink feel the same as I do . Everyone has different experiences .

@Bulldog

If you think anyone here is minimizing yours or anyone else's trauma, you're way off the mark, my friend. No one is doing that.

What you are doing is arguing irrelevant semantics. Two of my friends committed suicide and a third attempted but was unsuccessful because I pulled her from her car in the garage that she was sitting in and the paramedics got there in time. All three of them were living in impossible situations that drove them to desperation. I've been there myself, so I know how it is.

Does it really matter all that much whether it's called committing suicide or dying by suicide? It's just semantics. When a person wants to do themselves harm and end their life, they do in fact commit to it.

A person with a terminal illness or who has no quality of life and there's nothing that can be done for them, that's something different.

Stop arguing semantics because helps no one.

In my cousin's case he was a gay young man in the early 70s, born to a more conservative couple who considered this to be "the thing you cannot speak of". He was hopeless and didn't go on and he was, yes, depressed. He didn't honestly want to live in a world where he wasn't fully accepted for who he was. To him it was not worth the pain. He chose a relatively kind end, and he took his exit.
Would it be different today in a world where you didn't have to be so closeted and so judged for who you are? Probably. He was a guy who just lived to please, and he never would have pleased his parents and stayed true to who he was.
My own brother was a gay man who was born in the 30s. He was gentle and sensitive but had a strength to protect and defend himself and who he was. Bud didn't.
Whether we call it depression, or not, some people are not strong enough to stay and make a choice not to. In many more cases than we suppose, suicide is for that person a rational choice. Given they know others will not accept that, they do not speak *though they often DO speak to those who DO understand".

The woman that Way wrote about decided she did not wish to live. We can call it depression and I am certain she was NOT happy. Who, doing such caregiving would not be unhappy and "depressed". But she did not wish to go on and she chose not to. And it is very sad. But it was a choice. When Amy Bloom (author) husband was diagnosed with Alzheimer's he chose not to go on. She supported him in that choice. She helped him get to Switzerland where he CHOSE TO COMMIT suicide. I choose to give these people the DIGNITY OF CHOICE they made. They CHOSE. It wasn't up to us to say whether they were right, wrong, lucky or unlucky. Death with dignity to me is the end goal.

I don't think there's a big old fat enough PhD out there to decide, to JUDGE whose death was dignified choice and whose was just a "mistake". That's now ours. That's God's, the shrinks, whoever's. And no amount of verbiage is going to matter in the end.

Manylosses, I think you're right, you and Bulldog. Suicide due to mental health issues is a different ballgame than suicide by choice in someone like me with stage 4 cancer who may choose to die if the cancer comes back and I'm in agony.

My cousin's daughter died by suicide when she was 17 years old and it was a terrible shock to all of us. I'm quite sure she didn't "choose" to die but rather suffered from deep depression and/or mental health issues that made her feel there was no way out of, compelling her to die. Such a sad situation.

This thread is making me so sad. I think it's always important to give people the benefit of the doubt, which is usually what I witness on this forum. But not this time.

I think one of the misunderstandings between the various comments is the lack of understanding that suicide is not always a rational, considered choice. BTW, I'm not woke, but lost my dearest family member to suicide 35 years ago. My family & I will never be over this loss. Society has come a long way; it's no longer the disgrace that it was then, but less stigma doesn't mean less suffering for those left behind.

In my family member's case, we realized too late that he was suffering greatly from undiagnosed and therefore untreated depression - for a number of years following job loss, severe marriage problems and health problems, as well as some recent family deaths. He continued on bravely for a long time, but it finally was too much. Our family was in complete shock, as he was the gentlest, least violent person I've ever known and could never have imagined something like that could happen. So yes, it was his choice, but he was not himself when he made that choice.

I think it is more humane and fair to refer to this manner of death as "died by" rather than "committed" suicide, because "commiting" most often is used to describe crimes against others. I don't think this is "parsing" or "PC", just a kindness to those left behind who will be carrying this loss and the attendant guilt ("Could I have prevented this?") for the rest of our lives.

This is not at all intended as a criticism of any posters, just meant as something to consider.

I’m so sorry for your husband’s coworkers loss. As a caregiver, I can wholeheartedly say I’ve felt impotent and out of sorts. Caregiving is a beast and oftentimes caregivers grieve in silence or don’t speak up. We think we could handle it all until we can’t and then it’s too late. I’m experiencing that now although my mother has been in a facility for the past 2 1/2 years I’m still running around taking care of other things I have no time to myself and when I do, I’m in bed all day. I wish she would have known that help was available. This scares me although I know that due to my religious convictions, I would never hurt myself, but my mind has gone dark. It’s difficult. I suggest that you continue to be supportive of your husband, as half of our lives are spent in the workforce coworkers are family too. 🫶🏻

And by the way, Bulldog, Lewy's is a disease. Just like my cancer is a disease. We didn't commit it.
But if we EXIT because of it, that is COMMITTING TO AN ACTION to avoid further pain from the disease.
The woman in question in Way's post COMMITTED to leaving this life because it became too painful for her to live in it. And to me that's a fair choice. Tough on the family, but a fair choice.
That's the difference.
And you know, my brother's ex, who go alcoholic encephalopathy, much as we can argue whether alcoholism is a choice or a disease, I did sometimes feel like he COMMITTED his dementia, and so taxed by bro in his 80s that his Lewy's came along. That's undoubtedly skewed thinking.
Killing one's self is a CHOICE. You are committing to a choice not to live. Because you feel you cannot go on any longer. And it is a choice my brother would have embraced fully rather than to lose his mind entirely.

oh really, Alva? Really?

This is what I said: “BTW, as someone who had a relative die by suicide not too long ago, “committed suicide” is not the appropriate terms to use anymore. Committed goes along with theft, murder, rape, etc. 

Died by suicide is the empathetic, truthful and thoughtful way of saying what happened. *****No judgment, just information******

This coworker died by suicide.”



and then I said: *******Again, this is information, not judgement******

I am letting you and everyone else know so that you don’t commit a faux pas and accidentally insult and offend someone. Wouldn’t that be terrible if you accidentally insulted a grieving person? I assume you would want to know this so it doesn’t happen. Right?”


And yes, dear Alva, I am in grief therapy. Having to look for your dead brother in law is a brain twister for sure.

Whether you, Alva, choose to die by suicide is your business.

My brother and I did indeed speak of the option of Suicide. We had the entire plan.
As do I. And to be honest, all in my family knows I would take my own exit when and how I choose. My brother died of sepsis before he "lost his mind" entirely. He CHOSE to go home on Hospice and not fight it, tho we virtually had to fight our way out of the Hospital to do that.

That is neither there nor here. If I do it I will FULLY COMMIT suicide. And I hope I will do it well. And certainly. That is the hope of most who intend to leave this life because it is too painful for them to endure.

I usually agree with you Lea, but I hope the admins shut this down. When it goes from a warning tale to means of bullying fellow members it's time for it to go down. Way is unlikely to fight hard for herself, and I am likely to not always fight appropriately when I get riled. And this one? Wow. I'm riled.

As I said, there is a point when life is not worth living. It's an option many people choose because we cannot make that trip to Switzerland.
To me it is a basic human right to choose whether to live or not to live.
I have fought a lifetime for Compassion and Choices. I will continue to fight for our right to die.

So you are still grieving and Way's words pierced you to the heart, Bulldog. I hope you will seek therapy. Because in my never to be humble opinion I think that is entirely inappropriate. Be sure to take Way's words here with you when you go. I need to know that therapist knows just how kind and gentle she IS.

People who bully and victimize others are often forgiven today with "She's/He's in PAIN." That is also "woke" psyc 101. I don't take that class. I think it is wrong to use you pain as a bludgeon.
I am sorry for your pain, but it's not a claw hammer.
You, Bulldog, are not the victim here. You are the one with the bludgeon. In my opinion.

Lea, NO, their biological processes and dis regulation of brain chemicals and mental health diagnoses caused the death.

Again, there is judgement and lack of empathy and understanding about mental illness and suicide. People don’t want to die that way— they are in a hole and see no way out. It’s NOT THEIR FAULT.

My God, some of you are coming across as hard hearted. No empathy or respect at all.

Alzheimer’s is in many cases considered as diabetes type 3, but no one is saying mom committed Alzheimer’s.

Bulldog.....not for nuthin, but a person does not cause their own Lewy Body dementia. Versus a person who "dies by suicide" indeed causes his own death. Arguing such a thing so vehemently will get this thread shut down and that would be a shame. It's one of the more valuable ones here.

No, Alva, you are wrong. This is NOT a new thing. You all are years (10++ years by the way) behind the change. Try some empathy.

Did your brother commit Lewy body dementia? No? Exactly.

"Died by suicide" or "committed suicide"? Really?
Count me with Burnt: I don't due "virtue policing", "Woke policing", "Grammar policing".
As someone who had a young close cousin commit suicide when I myself was near to him in age, I know NO ONE, no matter their verbiage, who tried to support the entire family meant anyone any harm.
And Way never meant to harm ANYone (nor was anything she wrote worthy of shaming). Way did all that she could to apologize to someone feeling (entirely inappropriatly) offended.
And for THAT got TRAMPLED? Now THERE's a bloody shame for sure.

At 82 I will absolutely NOT have someone simper to me that "commit" means something other than "died by". Not without my telling them I think that's utter drivel and nonsense.

So, we slip and don't remember that DIAPERS for OLD PEOPLE are now called "incontinence wear" for "seniors"? That just too bad. Because to the elder who is condemned to just one more tragic loss, who feels shamed, the words mean little. It is the COMPASSION of the speaker helping them that matters.

Grief counselors say that in order to avoid the walk into/through grief we often choose to be furious instead.
It's so much easier. It avoids the finality of loss. We can be furious at hospitals and doctors and nurses and rehabs and ECFs and friends and other family members and even ourSELVES. And in all that fury the lost one is lost all the more, abandoned really. So angry do we stay that it isn't even about the lost one at ALL, anymore. And that's a shame, as well.

Be angry if you must. But don't think it will win friends and influence people, nor make what happened a smidge different to what it was. Tragedy. Pain. Horror. And you can dress it like a chihuahua in a tutu if you want to, but that doesn't change a darn thing about what it REALLY is. It's been a while since we shunned those who couldn't bear life any longer from burial in hallowed ground, hasn't it? Lordy, I sure hope so!

I intend to use the phrase "committed suicide" when someone takes his or her own life by choice. I explored the option with my brother. I have explored it for mySELF and am a member if FEN. I don't feel shame about that, and I won't BE shamed by anyone's words one way or another if I DO that.
As my old Irish RN said "Things change one coffin at a time"; mine will be along here soon enough (though undoubtedly not soon enough for SOME).

Life is tough; some people can't go on. That leaves their families reeling in pain and horror. But the words mean nothing. It is the act that speaks the despair and desperation. My heart goes out to ANYONE who cannot take life anymore, whatever the reasons, and to their families, and if someone wants to try to raise me on the grammar petard, good luck. I've survived a whole lot worse than THAT.

Those who are righteous/holy enough to shame others? I guess they're the ones that always grabbed that first stone. I am sorry for those hurt so much that they turn to rage, but not when that rage is leveled at others who don't deserve it. And of all people I can think of on this Forum, who are KIND, who don't deserve this--well, now that Need is gone? It would be Way who has a big blue ribbon from ME for being kind to others.

No, Burnt. Don’t minimize people’s trauma. Also don’t compare people’s trauma. It’s not a contest.

I’m still grieving and her words stabbed me in the heart.

I appreciate that wayto said she will be more mindful when she posts on the topic. I appreciate that response and I thank her for saying it.

@Bulldog

Everyone here for the most part has been through some trauma or other. Waytomisery is a very kind and compassionate person. That should be as obvious to you as it is to everyone else on this forum.

Many of us can't keep upon the woke nonsense and the daily-changing, PC vernacular.
I don't keep up on it either. I too may not know every current, PC term things are called today. Yet, I'm the first person to help someone in need out.

So. maybe pay more attention to what waytomisery and others are SAYING rather than how they're saying it, and you may very well learn something in spite of yourself.

@Bulldog ,

Wow , just wow .

I have been more than a spectator regarding suicide in my own family in the past .
Don’t assume I’ve only been a spectator .

I never said I didn’t know at all either . I said my brain reverted to an old term when I was writing this .

Assumptions are problematic as well as shaming .

But yes I will try to be more mindful when writing . We often write differently than we speak to people in person .

You don’t want to re traumatize people who have been through this.

If you haven’t had to go look for your 32 year old brother in law who had an adoring wife and a 2 year old and a one month old babies, then you can’t possibly understand the trauma involved for those left behind. If you haven’t had to have the police sit in the living room with two computers— one trying to ping a phone and one trying to identify license plates, then you cannot know the trauma the family experienced. If you haven’t driven up to his truck with police lights and cars surrounding it, then you can’t understand the trauma. If you haven’t had to pay off the credit card with the gun purchase on it, then you can’t know the grief and the trauma the family is going through.

If you are in a hole, stop digging!

Just say you didn’t know and thanks for the information because you don’t want to harm a grieving person with your words.

And no, I WILL NOT let this go because it’s important.

Just say thanks for the information and that you won’t use the other term again.

You aren’t nearly as upset as that 17 year old boy. You aren’t nearly as upset as her loved ones who are going through it. You are a spectator. Remember that.

@Bulldog .

I don’t think anyone here meant to be offensive .
Sometlmes though I think you have to let something go , especially with people who are in distress. There are times when it is not helpful to be schooled.

I’m am permitted to have my personal feelings about be schooled at this time when I am very upset .

I’m sorry you can not see that there are times to be sensative to what others are going through and not make them feel shamed . I know that was not your intent at first . But it feels like shaming now all the same .

I would know not to say that to a grieving person . Don’t assume things .