Hi all,
My father was admitted to a nursing home and I received his admissions agreement. It's really long so I asked the admissions lady if I can take it home and bring it back because I wanted to read it thoroughly. She said that was fine but marked the areas that needed signatures. I told her that I was my father's POA and that I would sign as the POA under the "resident" signature line (father's name, by my name, as agent). However, the lady said that the "responsible party/resident representative" signature line also needed to be signed. I told her I would look into it at home and fill it out accordingly. She insisted that the responsible party/resident rep needed to be signed. I don't understand why I would sign under the responsible party/resident rep, if I can just sign as POA on the 'resident' signature line. I thought I am signing on his behalf? Wouldn't a signature on the 'resident' line be good enough?
Also, the lady assured me that I won't be financially responsible to pay for services with my own funds, and it would only come out of my father's funds. She said to read page 1, where it indicates that "responsible party refers to an individual who has legal access ot the Resident's income and resources." Honestly, I do not feel comfortable signing as "responsible party/resident representative." Can they discharge or kick out my father because I refuse to sign as responsible party? I live in the state of NY.
The contract also states that, "The responsible party may be held liable to the extent that the facility relies to its detriment on false, misleading or incomplete information and documentation supplied by the Responsible party regarding matters, including, but not to limited to, the Resident's financial resources, and for third party insurance coverage."
I am not sure what to do, I cannot afford to pay for an elder attorney. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The nursing home wants me to complete the admissions paperwork ASAP.
I ended crossing out the responsible party on my moms AL contract and sign as POA only..
I have often had situations where families have been told something by a "staff member" at the time of admission and later the family has found that what they were told was not true and they have no recourse. Example:
Families who place a loved one into a home as private pay but will need Medicaid down the road are often told "If you use all your money at our home when you need Medicaid bed we will have one for you." So the family puts their loved one in the home spends all the money and when they go the staff and ask for a Medicaid bed they are told "we don't have one available at this time, you will have to move your loved one." When the family tells them they what they were told they then said "no one here would tell you that or do you have that in writing?" No one will ever put that in writing!
Again, as many have told you in this post, sign as POA. If you do this you should be fine. If the admissions person does not accept this ask them: If I sign without the POA will you sign a statement acknowledging that I am not going to be held financially responsible for any bill. I am pretty sure they won't.
Now, my dad passed away in September and now the NH is billing my mother for what Medicare/Medicaid didn't cover. (He went in while on private ins/Medicare and then he got onto Medicaid before he passed away) It says she is she is 'responsible party'. Had I signed it, my lawyer said we would not have had to pay.
The NH was quick to put those papers under my mother's nose on her first visit to see my dad at a time when we were all stressed and confused. I wish I had gotten there first.
Ps.. the NH admin person may call a bunch of times... state such things as " I don't know what will happen to your loved one if you fail to sign these papers" or "everyone must have someone sign" .. but... nothing will happen to your loved one.. and someone else will or has already signed or the NH wouldn't have accepted your loved one in the front door... avoid them.. they are just setting you up for their lawsuit..
They also want someone to sign as being financially responsible. That's also "Dad, by Caregivernyc, POA." This makes him financially responsible, not you.
As POA, you are only his agent, responsible for taking care of his financial affairs in a responsible and honest manner. ALWAYS sign as POA.
Never let anyone pressure you into signing just your name. I don't think the NH is expecting you to do that, I think they just want all the lines filled in, and the POA signature will satisfy them.
COPPERTINO
I'd be seeing the elder law attorney for guidance. This is too serious a matter, and it sounds very much like they are smooth talking but in the end, even if out of the residents funds, they'll still hold you accountable for accessing and paying from them. Don't sign without a legal review.
Jane Doe, POA FOR John Smith
Rather, he stated to sign all legal docs as:
John Smith BY Jane Doe, POA
He said this would insure that the doc was clear that the parent was responsible for payment, and NH could not come after me for unpaid bills. I live in Texas, and have done all my POA signing for both parents in this way. Best of luck.
I was not responsible for my mother financially, but needed to make sure her monthly payments to assisted care were made. They need to make sure the meds. they give are given correctly. I assume that you are the person they call if they have an issue or concern. In all these cases are you the responsible person they can call on?
I think you said you were told that you are not responsible financially and assume you understand they can’t care for your father unless you know payments can be made.
Knowing he is safe and cared for is a blessing. Ignore the horror stories some like to tell without having the whole story and all the facts.
Your father is blessed knowing you’re there for him.
God bless you with the guidance, strength and love you need.
It is another way of you making sure they are paid through his finances.
Having said that, I do have a twinge of sympathy for what I think the contract is getting at - that they have been burned before by (ir)responsible parties getting their charges admitted by telling shameless taratiddles about the person's insurance, assets and income.
Not your problem! You are signing for, with power of attorney. That is the limit of your responsibility, and good for you for minding those lines don't blur.
When you filled out the Medicaid application did you submit all the information about his income and his wife etc? I got a little nervous for you when you said his wife would need all his income.
She is considered a community spouse. Medicaid will not leave a community spouse without income is what I have read on this forum.
Are you working with a social worker at the NH?
Is he already on community medicaid?
Medicaid is managed slightly different state by state.
Hopefully someone from NY with Medicaid experience will see your post and weigh in. Keep answering and giving more info to make it clear where you are in the process so they can help you.
This link has an article about NH contracts. It states that it is against federal law to ask you to sign that you are responsible. Go over this with the Social Worker.
My understanding is they can’t kick him out.
The person you are dealing with may not have the authority to take the contract any way but how they explained. So if they can’t make you comfortable, ask
to speak with someone else who might be able to help you.
Here is an excerpt from the link.
Two critical pieces of advice for caregivers:
Make sure you aren't personally binding yourself to any financial responsibility. Sometimes, nursing homes may try to get a caregiver to become a "responsible party." In most cases this means that the caregiver will be responsible for their loved one's nursing home expenses. Caregivers should avoid signing these kinds of agreements as federal law prevents nursing homes from requiring such commitments.If there's something in the contract that you don't understand, make note of it and ask the nursing home to explain it to you. Or contact an elder law attorney before you sign.
And remember—even when you feel pressured by time, finances, or nursing home staff members—you always have options.
If you don't feel comfortable with the document you're being asked to sign, Polinsky says, "A caregiver needs to have the wherewithal, even during that stressful time, to say that they will not sign the contract."
https://www.agingcare.com/articles/nursing-homes-prevent-suing-arbitration-causes-150390.htm
EDIT; did you already offer to sign as Isthisresllyreal suggested in both places or you just didn’t want to sign under any capacity in the second space?
Remember as his POA you are signing or committing for him. Not yourself.
The issue I am having is signing as "responsible party" on the nursing home admissions agreement. I do not want to be the 'responsible party' because I have read and heard horror stories about nursing homes later suing the responsible party, when necessary. I know that there's a chance that nothing will happen because I work well with the nursing home when it comes to renewing dad's benefits. However, I do not want to take any risk and become liable for my dad's expenses/bills during his stay at the nursing home.
In any event, I called the admissions lady and told her I am refusing to sign the responsible party. I told her that I can sign as his POA on the resident section. In the end, I will have to seek an elder law attorney to help complete the admissions agreement. There are so many pages to it, and it gets confusing.
Sign everything this way or you will find some sleazy company trying to make you personally responsible.
Does he own a home you plan to sell to help pay for his care?
You do have access to his income or assets right?
Do you know of some reason he wouldn’t qualify for Medicaid?
If your father has any funds, there is probably not a more important expense to spend it on than a naela or CELA attorney, a certified elder attorney with experience in Medicaid application. It’s not your money you would be spending but his for him.
Give a bit more information and hopefully a NY resident with NH experience will respond.