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My parents have been married over 60 years. My mother has been unhappy for most of that time. She has been caregiving for my dad. Dad is frail, with limited mobility but can get around with a walker. Mom is Type A personality. Dad is basically a hen-pecked husband. Mom had reached her limit and asked Dad to ask me to take him for 2 weeks which I did. I flew to their state, my sister who lives locally took Dad and I to the train station, we traveled 22 hours by train to my state and then did the reverse to get him back home (Dad won't fly). There were challenges, but my Dad is an easy-going guy, appreciative and loving.

I haven't been home for 48 hours and Dad says Mom wants out. She enjoyed her 2 weeks off and doesn't want to caregive anymore. She wants out, as in divorce.

I don't know what to do. Should I call a social worker to find out what our options are? Do we wait for Mom to leave? Side note, Mom and I have a rocky relationship right now, she doesn't communicate with me. I found out how serious things are with Dad while he was here, things I wasn't aware of the seriousness - like his fine motor skills and eyesight are very poor. She always says he has dementia, and his short-term memory is really bad, but he is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to history, books, politics and things that he is interested in, we can have completely normal conversations. He just can't remember where he left his jacket 5 minutes ago. So having had a mother-in-law who really did have dementia, I don't feel like Dad is there at all.

Mom has been a very good caretaker for Dad physically, but has become very emotionally abusive to him. I can't fix the dynamics of their marriage - I can't force my mom to stay when she's so miserable.

What would be a good first step for me to take? Thank you for reading.

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My advice is to back out . Mom has been miserable and now after 60 years wants out? Great. Tell her to let you know when she leaves the house. Then help your Dad contact an attorney for legal seperation and division of assets and for his placement. Until then, given Mom has been unhappy for 60 years, it's just more blah blah blah. I would have stopped listening a long time ago.
Let your Dad know if he wants a pre emptive seperation and placement away from this woman, that he should let you know. Stay in contact with Dad.
Every relationship is unique. This is just another one. I think it unlikely Mom will leave. If she does, good riddance.
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BurntCaregiver Feb 2022
Best advice on the thread, AlvaDeer.
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Has anyone asked your mom what a divorce this late in life will accomplish? I mean, maybe she is the one with the beginnings of dementia and is feeling overwhelmed by caring for your father, which is now a 1-way relationship in terms of "benefit". Just because she's "type A" doesn't mean she can't have cognitive decline. My 92-yr old mother keeps herself physically and mentally "busy as a bee" all day, every day, but if you throw a problem in there it crashes her world and she freaks out over it. Maybe your sibling can "give her permission" to be 100% released from caregiving her husband even though she's married to him. Maybe her black-and-white mind (or declining mind) thinks the only "moral" way out of caring for him is to legally be divorced. Maybe she's worried that he'll "use up" all their financial resources for his care and have nothing left for her care? It is possible she can't express these thoughts so maybe just ask her? If she gets a divorce does she intend to get back into dating? What's the point of all that angst and effort? Maybe your sibling can take her to an elder law attorney to help her figure out how to make sure she has an equal amount of resources for her future use.

If it were my parents and they were 10 years or more younger than they are now, I'd probably step away and let them sort it out. But they have to be in their 80s or more, right? And then you'll probably still feel compelled to help your Dad no matter what because he seems more helpless. Maybe your mom just needs someone to take Dad off her hands and assure her that a divorce is simply a legal formality that will be costly and complex and have no other benefit other than mental for her, so why not leave things as they are and just solve the most pressing issue for her, which is what his future care will be? I'm not judging whether to step in or back, just being practical and suggesting that your mom may not have it all together like you think, especially since everyone lives so far from her -- you don't really see the day-to-day mom.

Left on her own would your mom be capable of carrying through finding and engaging a divorce attorney, finding all the financial and investment and other paperwork, paying for the cost...etc.? Who's going to help your Dad move out and where will he go? I think "stepping away" = allowing mom to create a hot mess that will still require intervention and induce family anxiety in the end. A social worker won't have any power if neither of them have a medical diagnosis of dementia.

Is anyone PoA for either parent? Has your mom ever had a cognitive exam or checked for a UTI recently? The older people get, the more "stuff" can change on a weekly or even daily basis. Before assuming your mom is just a busy little bee who wishes to be independent once dad's care is decided, I'd make it a point to have her assessed so that everyone has context for making future decisions.
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Tribe16 Feb 2022
I have been concerned about my mother's mental health for several years. My dad finally, reluctantly opened up to me (this is someone who would NEVER speak disparagingly of her) the past couple of weeks about her mental state. I am obviously not a psychologist. I think she may have a personality disorder because her behavior ticks most of the boxes for both borderline and covert narcissism. YES, she is burnt out. YES she needs a break. What the people that suggest these things don't realize, is
- We beg her to get help with housekeeping and caregiving. Her answer is No.
- We suggest she join a caregiver's support group. Her response is "I don't want to sit around with a bunch of people who are complaining about caregiving."
- I gingerly suggest she see a counselor, I get back a firestorm of "You are the one with the self-esteem problems, I don't need anything like that."

And you are right, there is nothing I can do right now that is acceptable to her.

She is very private. She is somewhat (IMO) paranoid. She hasn't phoned me in over a year. I stopped calling her because she was emotionally abusive when I did speak to her (icy, rude), but I do send cards and notes letting her know I'm there if and when she wants to talk.

No, neither my sister or I are POA. That's another mess. Last year Mom went ballistic because I didn't bring it up (Sorry, but I assumed it is there responsibility to ask me, if that was wrong, so be it). Then when I try to reassure her I am willing to discuss, she gets angry and says that she's getting a fiduciary. This past week, Dad asked me if my sister and I would be co-executors of their wills - I had to tell him about mom's outburst the last time the subject came up, of which he knew nothing - but told him "Yes, absolutely, I'm sure Sis and I will be able to do this together." He said he was going to talk to Mom about it.

Mom is so prickly about EVERY single thing that it is difficult. They have the same GP. I asked Dad, "Have you thought about telling the doctor about stuff that's going on at home? Maybe he can do a cognitive test on Mom without mentioning you are the one that brought it up." Dad was "No, that will push her over the edge. She'll know I suggested it" I don't know where to go with this.
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Mom, if you want out I understand. You needed a break. I get that too.

But this is your marriage. If you want out, think it through.

What do you really need?
More temporary breaks? Where Dad stays in respite for 2 weeks at a time? Or weekly breaks where Dad goes to adult daycare.

Or maybe you do want out for good (ie divorce).

Use this time Dad stays with me to look into your options. Properly.

Find a therapist & start discussing what your future life will look like. Find a social worker to help take the steps needed. Find an elder legal service to assist with legal/financial matters.

This is your marriage & your responsibility.

Dumping Dad on your kids & walking away is NOT the way. Got it?

I can help you find the help you need but I will NOT be your solution.

How's that?
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Tribe16 Feb 2022
Oh my gosh Beatty - this so helpful, thank you. Thank you for spelling it out for me.
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If your dad doesn't have dementia and neither does mom, then they are fully functional adults who can make their own decisions and take the appropriate actions.

The last place an adult child belongs is in the middle of their parents' martial squabbles. Because it sounds like you've been there your whole life, you might consider speaking to a social worker or counselor yourself. (Went back and read your other posts about Mom's depression, passive/aggressive behavior AND that you have sought therapy--Yay!)

Although you say that dad is easy-going and appreciative, beware of the idea of moving him into your home if he decides to leave mom. Will he consider the idea of moving to an Independent Living Facility or Senior Apartment where he can be around more peers?
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Another comment to back off and not to get in the middle of their marriage.

Let one of them initiate a divorce or separation or a move out. If Mom moves out or initiates divorce or separation then support Dad. Until then, I'd let them figure out their own marriage.

It does sound like Mom is one of those people that complain about everything and will never be happy with anything. I also suspect she will never move out.
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As you think dad is mostly cognitively okay, let him know, away from mom, that she’s no longer doing any caregiving and find out what his wishes are for a new plan on where to live. If he insists on staying with her, seems like you don’t have much choice but to leave him there until one of them declines further. If he’s open to moving take him to look at some options
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Tribe16 Feb 2022
You're right. I need to start researching what is available in my area. If they separate, it will make sense that I get one parent near me and my sister gets the other one near her. I asked Dad if things ever came to this could he imagine himself living out here and I think it would be an adjustment but he is more accepting of the situation.
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Your mother most certainly has caregiver burnout. If she's been married to your father for 60 years then she isn't a young woman herself anymore and should not be his caregiver.
You and your sibling need to have a serious conversation with your mother and lay all the cards on the table. Speak in plain language and make it understood that neither of you are going to take over the caregiving for your father and he will not be moving into either of your homes. If this is not an option you or your sibling is offering, your mother must be made aware of it. It seems to me like this is exactly what she wants and is waiting for you or your sibling to bring it up. Your mother very likely wants to stay legally married and wants to keep your father out of a care facility because she doesn't want her own standard of living or income to decrease if your father goes into AL, or MC, or even senior independent living. She wants everything to stay the same, but only with your father living somewhere else that also comes with free caregiving services.
Tell her to grow up. It's not up to you or your sibling to fix your parents' lives. You and your sibling can discuss care options for your father, but keep a bit of a distance though. Ultimately it will be her decision if she wants to get divorced at her age.
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Tribe16 Feb 2022
BurntCaregiver,
Yeah, I don't know what she wants because she won't discuss anything with me. I know you are right, my sister and I need to present a united front and be direct. I dread the circular conversation that will ensue. But we at least have to try before we bring in a social worker/mediator type person.

Geaton and BarbBrooklyn,
Thank you for thoughtful and detailed constructive responses. You've given me lots to think about. I think I'm going to check in with Dad tomorrow, see how he's doing. Sister is taking him out to lunch on Weds. It probably does me no good to get all worked up tonight from 1000 miles away. Mom could change her tune in the next 48 hours, who knows.

In my heart the best thing is to get them away from each other. How to do that is the hard part. I know Mom will not want to talk about money, while Dad has already shared approximately what is available, letting me know "Don't tell your mom I told you this"... ugh.

This has been one, big, huge lesson in what not to do to my kids.
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I've read all the replies & responses now.

It reminds me of a friend's Dad yrs back. Was dealing with serious health issues of his wife. "We're fine, she's fine, I'm fine, no don't need any help". Had a successful career, could manage right?

Except he was NOT fine & he DID need help. The burden of care was stretching over many years. He did not know how to say it or find it. Was overwhelmed & burning out.

As Geaton pointed out, his marriage vows 'in sickness & in health' was his strong moral code. Add in the strong religious belief to put others before you, then add that 'I am a sucessfull manager' personality & ... he coped & coped until one day... Boom! He lost it.

Put wife in the hospital & drove to all adults kids homes (spread all other the state) to announce his wish for divorce.
Shock & more shock.

What happened next was having Mother somewhere cared for & safe, then counselling for Father.

He then SAW he could actually continue by accepting the HELP he had long denied.

That story ended with a lovely couple still married till the end, getting the support they BOTH needed.

Now for the OP's folks, they may stay together or maybe not. Maybe they both could reach a better level of happiness apart? Marriage counselling is good for those situations deciding on joined or separate paths.

So rather than try to *fix* the folks marriage or *swoop* in to save Dad - point them both towards a qualified marriage counselor service.

As my DH (bluntly) tells his family members "I am not your shrink" 😄

Tribe, your folks are lucky to have you in their team. But you don't have to be the Coach.
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Tribe16 Feb 2022
Yes, I need to avoid the compulsion to swoop - part of being the oldest I guess. Dad is totally open to counseling, Mom is totally opposed. I am going to ask Dad to think about the mediator. I would love someone else to lay out the facts for my Mom, that it's not as easy as she seems to think it is. Thank you.
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So, let me expand on my answer, especially in light of Geaton's excellent points.

My way of being with my parents was to wait until I was asked for something. If I was asked, I could then set some limits around what help I was willing to give.

This is opposed to "swooping", a bad habit that ALOT of us have.

What has mom "asked for"? Is she asking for you to "take" dad? Does she think he is your responsibility? Is she asking for help with establishing her own household?

You have indicated in the past that you and mom have a pretty fraught relationship. Be prepared for NOTHING that you do is right.

What does DAD want?

Do you think that either of your parents would listen to a mediator or social worker? How about you ask them if they'd like you to arrange for a divorce mediator to come to their home and talk to them. Would that help, or would that be yet another piece of assistance that mom would reject?
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Tribe16 Feb 2022
BarbBrooklyn, the mediator thing is a very good idea. Mom rejects everything to be honest. I did tell my Dad while he was here, that if I felt like things were getting out of control at home, I wouldn't hesitate to get a social worker involved and that I didn't mind being thought of as "the evil daughter" because at this point I'm damned if I do or don't. He wasn't thrilled, but he understood.
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Tribe, I think part of what you need to figure out here is how much you and your sister are willing to do.

Please be aware that if there are limited assets involved, you/they need to be very mindful of Medicaid regs. Mom may want to divide assets in a certain way that is totally contrary to the "best" way to do things. If mom is going to be obdurate and not listen to advice, then she needs her own lawyer to represent her best interests.

I understand that you love both of your parents, but it sounds as though your dad is the one who needs care and who is being abused by mom. He may need someone to represent HIS interests so he can get the care he needs.
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