The POA took a salary. When will it stop?

I will offer my situation, what happened to me how bizarre, vindictive and gateful it was. I never expected somethiing like this from my own twisted sisters.

I had been caring for mom and her hubby L for a year. He had a hip replacement which was what started the entire gnarly mess. Up to that point he had been caring for mom bt himself, never a complaint or even tell us how forgetful mom was becoming. He was gone nearly three months following the hip to rehab. My ts2 called to tell me mom would have to go to a facility because she could not be left alone. That was more than four years ago now. I had just been laid off and told sis I would come stay with mom. She then told me that she wanted to pay me, to which I replied let's just wait and see where this goes.

L would not be able to return home without help, so me leaving was not an option everybody wanted them to be able to remain together in their home. At that time I tried to discuss payment for mom's care with ts2, POA. She avoided and avoided for a year, she then called APS to report me for financial exploitation of not only our Mom (reminder ts2 is POA and knows what occurs with Mom's accounts and I did not have access to them) but her husband L as well! This led to me retaining an attorney to try to help sort all of this out. A guardian was put in place by the court to determine whether care at home by me was sufficient, and a conservator to audit all household finances. Upon reports to ts2 that all the financial info was above board and there was not exploitation, and the guardian more than satisfied that the care was excellent, ts2 and ts1 still did not believe the professionals that had looked at everything under that roof very closely.

So be careful what you wish for alarmed's you may end up with reports from APS that absolutely everything is above board and honest. In which case I imagine you would still choose to believe what you want in spite of being told otherwise. And by this time you have spent a significant portion of your money, while your sister can spend mom's money for her attorney most likely because of fairly standard instructions in the POA document itself.

rainmom, reason I said what I did re grandson is he has "threatened" - would that be a valid word to use - to get an attorney as well re dad's stuff since, even though he's not on anything, like the will, legally, and, obviously, being "just" a grandson is not a legal heir, he feels he's still entitled, maybe because he did stay with dad "ostensibly" taking care of him and I only say that because told me he wanted him to stay with him, not only to "take care" of him but also to be a companion to him and he said he wasn't doing that and grandson concurred, so it wasn't just dad saying it, then also grandson said he tried to talk dad into signing his house over to him and he adamantly refused, said, and this was his reason, as much as he'd given grandson over the years, he intended for the house to be mine, yet there seem to be laws regarding someone they've had move in with them at least as far as how long they have to be allowed to stay in the house after decease of the owner if they've been considered to have been taking care of them, which is 2 yrs., which is just about up, so you can feel things heating up

oh, rainmom, now I see your mom is in nursing home; I can hardly imagine the financial nightmare you dealt with - a dozen banks?! wow - fortunately, I suppose, in that sense, my dad only had one but even that was an issue - oh, I'm also his executor as well - with his will witnesses no longer being around - well, maybe it was the other way around, we used his bank signature to verify his will signature with that being the case but I'm also just thankful that someone the bank recognized the need for his funds there to be done POD so they wouldn't have to go through probate when he passed away since I was already POA but also, maybe another fortunate, in one sense, thing, that I was/am also sole heir, so don't have the whole sister thing but even though might not be strictly a legal issue do have the whole grandson issue who's definitely trying to make it a legal thing to deal with; also, again, fortunately? none of dad's income was taxable since he had none except his social security - but something I've learned about with dealing with hub's aunt and uncle, waiting on all that end and first of year stuff now, finally got their mandatory IRA distribution statement, so can understand the pain it could be, but started off dealing with all dad's doc appts. but grandson, especially after he moved in, gradually took on more of that, but the last one that was going to be the biggie he never made it to before grandson found him collapsed, but when things like that happened he always called me to come make the decisions, he couldn't handle that and not sure they would have allowed him to anyway so I always went and stayed while he would be in the hospital and met with the social worker they called in, partially because grandson wouldn't take care of anything when he would go in, paying his bills while he was in there since I'm the one he put on his checking account after mom passed away, then dealing the whole them wanting to put him in the nursing home after grandson saying he wouldn't take care of him anymore, when hadn't even gotten his salary all straightened out yet, that I'd already spent the whole first part of the year getting what he was getting, but then him getting upset at finding that out - inadvertently, when they brought the paperwork from the doctor in just as I'd stepped out for the meeting and just as he stepped in, so thinking I was doing all this behind his back, when he was the one who caused it by what he said to them, not me, at least he did use his salary to pay the bill for the credit card he got in dad's name; which, rainmom, why would there be a charge on your mom's VISA if she's in a nursing home? plus this doctor was not his regular doctor; he just called in on call because his only doctor was through the VA, which he can't go to the regular local hospital, which is where he was, so he really didn't know anything about him anyway; he was just doing what the social worker wanted but at least dad's friend did come see him but he couldn't talk to him so I still had to tell him everything. Then you had dad calling me when I wasn't there upset about grandson moving his girlfriend in as well and threatening to leave if she had to putting dad in a bad situation. Checkbook hadn't been balanced in forever it turned out, that when had the fire and deposited then had to withdraw insurance check and asked about balance for first time in forever and was given receipt grandson took it when he not supposed to know about it so they called so apologetic especially since so much more than was in checkbook and had them put in so now way more money than realized he had and now grandson knows as well, except dad won't remember long, which makes for a situation that seems like takes all day every day on the phone to deal with, what with all this automated stuff you have to deal with every time you go to make a phone call, so even though I'm not the one there I feel I spend as much time dealing with things as grandson does, actually more in some ways because he doesn't spend every minute or even as much as I do actually having to actually take care of him.
But maybe I just thought it would be easier if he were in a nursing home

I admit I don't understand either how they just found out a year ago that sis was using mom's car if she's been using it for 5 yrs.; had they not visited in those 5 yrs.? but also if mom's been unable to speak or walk for that length of time, what led to her being placed in a nursing home recently, if that's the case, as I understand it or is that what's led to the use of mom's car being an issue, that it wasn't as long as she was at home but is now with her being in nursing home?

one thing I do want to mention regarding dad wanting his grandson to move in with him is he somewhat felt he owed it to him for all that he had done for him over the years - he was part of the reason he didn't still have $50,000; if he had he might have moved to assisted living; at that point the only he would have been able to was to have sold his house, which he did consider, but that's a bigger decision than to have been able to do it but know he would still have his house to come back to if he decided to

ok, rainmom, seeing more of the situation now; would that dad had still had $50,000 when he had his big fall, but maybe not really an issue since he was a veteran and at least somewhat of his care then they took care of; well, I guess all of that they did; it was the later stuff they didn't but he had Medicare of course and I guess he must have a good supplement - paid for by the state, as in his state retirement and I say good but we didn't have any bills while I've heard of others who also had a supplement but still had bills, so...and by that point he didn't much beside pay his bills anyway; wasn't much "fun" left in life anyway, except maybe his cigarettes he'd started smoking that he'd ended up leaving in his recliner in his garage and catching it on fire but thankfully his insurance took care of that so not any expense there either but was when he began to want his grandson to move in with him to be there in case anything else happened, just took a while but then he is the one who found him collapsed leading to that later hospitalization where the hospital wanted to put him in a nursing home, which is when I got the POA to be able to take care of that when grandson said he wouldn't take care of him, but then he agreed to so ending up not having to do so

Deb - up to you how you read and answer - not my thread. I was suggesting you start from the beggining as this is a complicated one with two originating posters and several points of contention.

not sure how things are handled there but we have a volunteer guardianship program here that's not charged - well, wait, after having met one the other day, maybe not quite what I thought - yes, the guardians do the actual taking care of the people and making decisions but they don't handle the money - an actual lawyer does do that and you're right, think this guy said he does charge quite a bit while at the same time he says it's hard to get the money out of him for the actual care - hm....maybe that needs to be taken up with the court - but still think the issue here is how much is being spent on mom vs sister, isn't it - or is it?

ok, rainmom, I found where you don't take a salary but I still haven't whether your mom's in a nursing home or not? my dad was able to stay at home with his grandson taking care of him but I got him a salary because he needed it; my dad didn't think so but he had no idea of his expenses; he thought if he lived with him he wouldn't have any, which, like somebody else who posted on here (can't think who right and don't really need to take the time to look it up), of course, doesn't have any household expense and nothing else would really matter to my dad - at that point anyway - although at one time he would have realized auto expense - which, is that not an issue here?

do see some now and think was my point as well; where is mom in the nursing home coming into all this - know that my friend takes stuff to the nursing home as well as stuff for her mom; think she does have that little stipend they get, which I believe is all the money her mom has, not sure that covers everything she needs so anything else she gets for her she does her own self and again, certainly no car of mom's to do anything with and certainly no salary for anything she does; now is your mom in nursing home?

rainmom, I had started at the beginning but then missed some in the middle, not sure if I'd realized at the outset mom was in nursing home, hence what trying to respond to now, to me that seems different than if she were at home; know you've been posting and responding but not on this actual page so to go back I'll lose this so going to go ahead and post this and ask but then will go look; does that make a difference to you?

Debdaughter - I've been reading /participating in this one from the start - I'm not sure I understand the true motives here! You're only hope in following this one is to start at the beggining!

without going back and reading more, where I did start, but have been reading foreward, I'm not sure I really understand either, if mom is in nursing home; I have a friend whose mom is as well and she didn't even have a car when she went in, so any visiting my friend does she has to use her own vehicle and she gets no reimbursement because her mom doesn't have any money, didn't have when she went in, not sure if she'd feel she should or would if she did because I know she's concerned now about things will be taken care of, wouldn't that be the real issue? but maybe the issue is over the salary, was she still able to pay the lease on the car when she started taking care of mom but then once she was placed in nursing home what's happened then, not sure I really understand the picture here

ak POA requirements can vary. If sister was given POA without mention of payment they are still not expected to be out of pocket for so doing.

REMEMBERING I AM BRITISH

Mine clearly states You won’t be paid for acting as an attorney unless the donor has said that they will pay you a fee. However

Unless you’re a professional attorney, you won’t normally be paid for being someone’s attorney.

Expenses
You can claim expenses you’ve had while carrying out your duties as an attorney, for example:

travel costs
stationery
postage
phone calls
Keep your receipts and invoice the donor for your expenses.

Now if they have said they would pay a fee then you can take that fee but that would likely include above costs

In the US the law is very clear about monitoring the actions ofPOAs

Who monitors the actions?

There is no official or government monitoring of agents acting pursuant to power of attorney. That is the responsibility of the principal. It is therefore important to insist that your agent keep accurate records of all transactions completed for you, and to provide you with periodic accountings. You might also direct your agent to give an accounting to a third party in the event you are unable to review the accounting yourself.

That means that none and I mean no-one except the person on whose behalf you are acting and the courts (should they deem necessary) can force documentation to be provided UNLESS it is specified in the original document.

The laws can however vary from state to state and with the moderators permission I would hope they leave this link up
powerofattorney.uslegal/state-laws/

My mom's POA states the opposite. The POA is entitled to pay themselves a reasonable amount. What is that? Anybody knows. But it could be in line with guardian fees of $120.00 an hour plus conservator fess of $150.00 an hour.

There is one more thing in this situation that bothers me. Stressed stated that the sisters agreed to let the POA sister take this monthly payment. On what authority was this done? The non-POA sisters do not have any authority to disperse mom's money. It would seem that these payments could only be authorized by mom or someone acting on mom's behalf.

My POA appointment states that I am prohibited from being paid for acting as POA. This was included at my request because of the family dynamics involved. I didn't want to have the same situation that these sisters have because my brother is only interested in the money. I do, however, have a legal opinion that I can charge for all of the other services I perform for mom - laundry, shopping, appointments, etc. So far, I have only reimbursed myself for my out-of-pocket expenses, but as mom's needs increase I may start charging for my time.

And I will add that 24/7 care in the home as Jude is providing, and I did for four years, if was done by outside caregivers, other than family, would cost upwards of $12,000.00 a month.

Alarmed and Alarmedtoo, relax, give your sister the support she deserves.

$1,000.00 a month? That is generous? If you had a conservator and guardian watching over Mom, the bill would be a minimum of about $2,000.00 a month, and the nursing home would be on top of it.

Thank your sister POA and support her in everything she is doing for your mom and let her know how grateful you are that she is willing to do it for such a pittance!

Mum is in a nursing home and a POA does not have to attend doctors appointments unless they have a health POA as well, there won't be grocery shopping and laundry so I doubt very much there is such a lot to do unless mums estate is sufficiently substantial for a lot to be done and I note it was a sizeable estate if I recall correctly but I would think about 30 hours a month and you are right that actually isn't that much now I really think about it. I do all mine on a spreadsheet so it is much quicker ad the only real time it takes me is to scan in receipts for large things. If anyone wants to query the minutiae I have the receipts for everything - bags of them - help yourself!

Just for info and I am Mums full time carer too, 24/7. I get my food and lodging free now. (I used to pay the bills and rent) then the bills now I pay nothing for I have nothing) I get your equivalent of 100$ from the state (remember I am a Brit). If I want anything for my car which I need to ferry Mum about, Mum pays for it but I do only use it for her except when she is in respite and then I pay for gas. I buy my own clothes and if I need to shower stuff but my family ALWAYS give me that as a present now so that is rare.

Outside of that I probably take about £100-150 in cash a month about 150 - 225 your money and the rest is saved and put away in her account.

Mum gets 400£ or 600 your money in an allowance for her care but that goes towards my food and lodging and the payment to me.

I don't think I am being greedy. Would I like more? Who wouldn't? Would I take more? If I needed to yes. Would my family query it? Only if they want to see me more angry than I have ever been in my life!

Would anyone say I was abusing her? Nope because the cost of the alternatives is so much heavier n the state AND because I am not. I know I am not because I HAVE been investigated courtesy of a nosey neighbour it turns out, I did initially think it was someone else but the investigators were impressed that I kept such clean records and thought my costs were kept to a very basic minimum and said I could take more with justification

I have to say $1k a month is very low, and if the Power of Attorney puts in 20 hours a week with paperwork, paying bills, doctor appointments, grocery shopping, laundry, yada, yada, yada, that comes to $12.50 per hour before taxes [quarterly estimated income taxes].

I have to take it back - $1000.00 is not that high. I did some loose math basing it on a minimum amount of hours I put in weekly and the hourly rate is actually reasonable. If course POA sister may be putting in more or less time than I. And not sure what salary value the IRS would put on a car - you can't just figure it based on an average car cost and car loan. However - all this aside - I stand by my statement that this should be more about mom and less about inheritance worries.

And for alarmed too should she be watching we aren't cross or angry just giving our opinion based on the facts presented to us. No-one and I mean no-one can know what goes on in the minds of others. The car seemed to be the main issue despite the POA fee being the original question and that caused a lot of unease. We didn't and still don't know how much care your sister did at home before the nursing home was involved. We don't know what your sister did to take up the role of carer - i.e. did she give up a good job and now finds herself in a difficult place. We don't know if she was paid for caregiving which I personally think should happen but that is a personal opinion not the opinion of all by a long margin.

So while you were angry with us for not telling you what you needed to hear, we could only work on what was presented to us. Its a bit like telling the doctor you have pain but but not telling him it has been going on for 6 months and it is your stomach that hurts. He can only work on what he is told and what can glean from his questions.

So she gets 1500$ for supervising care and POA which you all agreed to verbally well $1000 you agreed verbally. In the UK verbally agreed payments would stand up in court ... not so sure about the US BUT if your sister comes on to this site she would have written proof that you verbally agreed it so be aware of that

It's certainly top end but if you had tp have the courts to order a conservator/guardian/attorney/accountant to do the same role and supervise the care? probably more possibly less depending on needs etc.

Im not sure how much visiting your sister does or what input she has but you all need to talk to each other calmly through a mediator. If not this is going to be detrimental to you all as a family and when this nightmare is over you will have nothing left of the family your mother loved except bitterness toward each other.

Small chastisement and I know I have been harsh. You would have gotten a far more receptive response if we had all known this earlier, I am sure; but there is no point ranting , not to us and definitely not to your sister. Remember you and alarmed too are together while your sister sounds quite isolated and she does sound as though she is stressed to the point of needing help.

If she is stressed/ anxious/depressed at the situation your mother is now in she needs your support more than ever and I mean by that emotional support for she is possibly in a very dark place right now and can see no way out. I would hate to think that she had no-one to turn to and did something dangerous as a result and I am sure you wouldn't want that either so walk carefully and try mediation.

I was going to make the same suggestion realtime just made - should this come to a legal fight, Alarmed - please convince your sister to let you represent your side - you communicate in a more effective manner. And, as a unpaid POA - I agree what $1,000 does seem high.

Alarmedtoo
I am caring for my mother, living at nursing home and the primary ailment is heart condition / stroke.

Alarmed, thanks for your answer. Based on your comment earlier, I went back and read your post and answers from May 22, 2015. That gave a lot of useful information. Oh, dear. So essentially the POA sister is getting compensation in cash ($1,000) and in kind (car payment, plus insurance, fuel, etc.) for upwards of $1400 or $1500 a month. That's for supervising care, not for providing it. Why on earth wouldn't your sister give us that information when we asked? Well, it does sound high to me, so for heaven's sake, hand all of this over to your attorney friend and let him or her untangle it. And keep Alarmedtoo off the stand if this has to go to court.

$1000/month. I believe all expenses for the car, maintenance, insurance, etc. are paid for by my mom, but since we are not being given access to ANY financial information, I can't tell you positively.

Alarmed, I'm still assuming you asked your original questions in good faith, and I'm trying to figure out what might help calm the waters. Over the course of this long thread, we asked a couple of questions that were never answered, that might have made a big difference in how we responded. The first one was "how much is the POA getting in salary." Your sister said only that it was "huge." and refused to answer.. A second question was what is the make, model and value of the car (and who pays for gas, fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc.) What do these amounts come to per month? It is NOT "the principle of the thing." In fact, in principle, I think most of us would support the idea that the caregiver should receive compensation (in cash and/or in kind) in addition to her share of any inheritance. On the other hand, if the caregiver's compensation were outrageous --- entirely out of proportion to the value and effort of her services --- our answers would probably be very different. If you're reading this --- for heaven's sake, tell us what the POA is getting out of this! What is her salary? What kind of car is it? Who pays its operating costs? Then we won't have to guess at motivations, possible sibling conflicts, etc., etc., etc.

GardenArtist, unfortunately you may be even more untrusting of us than we are of our POA sister. You also need to reread the posts. There have been no inconsistencies. Please reread the entries. In one of your posts you claimed “Has anyone else noticed also that Alarmed states in her profile that she's caring for her mother in a nursing home, when she's actually some distance away?” This was never stated. I decided not to bother with correcting you earlier, but since you continue to post, and suspect that we are not actually seeking real help, I will have to rely on the helpful posts of the others. My sister (Alarmedtoo) is clearly frustrated and doesn’t always speak with eloquence, but I assure you that our problem is real. If some of the contributors here weren’t accusatory, it could have been a much more productive and helpful discussion. In fact if you look back many months, you will see another long post from me (Alarmed) with the same facts. We’re still trying to figure this out.

Rainmom, ohJude and realtime, you have given me things to consider in your last few posts. Thank you.

As a final note I guess… akdaughter, you really should ask questions and not make assumptions. When you assume “the stressed sisters use some vacation time to land at POA's house, eating her food, using her facilities and leaving her with extra cleaning and laundry” you really have no idea. We have never asked or been offered the opportunity to stay with my POA sister, who lives quite close to the nursing home. For you to claim that we are not interested in helping because “they are on vacation, so why should they be expected to help?” is just rude. Just for the record, the POA sister HAS had a vacation. Many trips have been taken away from her home. I wouldn’t say she’s cruising in the Caribbean, but she is certainly managing to takes trips. More than I am, just for the record.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am starting to feel much sympathy and empathy for the POA sister. I can see it all now - the stressed sisters use some vacation time to land at POA's house, eating her food, using her facilities and leaving her with extra cleaning and laundry. After all, they are on vacation, so why should they be expected to help? They are giving up their vacation time to go visit mom. (I wonder how long it has been since POA has had a vacation.) All the while POA is stressed worrying that the sisters are going to criticize her care giving, upset mom, who is unable to speak, and generally create havoc in her life. Then, they attack her for using the car and asking for compensation (which they agreed to) for the time and effort spent on mom's care and money management. I don't blame POA for not wanting to share any financial information. Can you imagine the flack she would take if the alarmed sisters don't agree with some of the expenditures? Maybe they will decide that mom didn't need that new sweater or robe, after all, it's not like she is going anywhere. POA and her "big, bad attorney" have probably decided that it is best to not open that can of worms.

My only sibling is a non-participating brother, and I do not volunteer any info about mom's finances to him. He showed his true colors after dad died and his first statement was something to the effect that "we need to go to the bank and cash in the CDs". That is probably why my sympathy for the stressed sisters ended when one of them admitted stating that she wanting to divide things equally right after mom's stroke. Mom just had a major stroke, and her first thought is about money. Disgusting.